A Midnight Synergy update!

Discuss the games (no level solutions or off-topic, please).

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A Midnight Synergy update!

Post by Midnight Synergy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:32 am

Hi folks,

For those of you who don’t know me: Hello, my name is Patrick, and I’m pretty much the one-man-band behind Midnight Synergy.

As I’m sure you’ve been aware, I have kept very quiet around these parts lately. In the last Midnight Post, I indicated that there would be some new announcements soon, both regarding games and the forum. Some of you noticed that not much of anything has been announced since then.

I want to apologize for that. Truth is, I am suffering from a bit of Wonderland burn out. WA:MOFI, in particular, took a lot out of me (I have found the “Adventures” series far more difficult and involved to produce, compared to the classic trilogy), and I just haven’t had the energy to get back into another game. There have also been some personal reasons, which I won’t get into, that have led to a severe lack of time to devote to games development.

When I wrote the update for the last Midnight Post, I had a spurt of activity, and things seemed to be back on track. I suppose I extrapolated too far and wrote the news update too soon. Almost as soon as the Post went out, things changed again, and development came to a complete stand-still.

So things have been very quiet at Midnight Synergy lately. There will be a new Midnight Post coming in July, but it will be more of a “retro” theme, without any new game announcement.

To at least partly make up for that, I thought I would take a few minutes to talk about three of the projects that are rumbling around in my skull. Very little of this has made it beyond the thought experiment, so take these idea sketches with a huge grain of salt... I still do not know if and when I will begin work on any of these.

But at least you know what I’m thinking about doing next.



Project #1 - Wonderland Adventures 3

I’m very much on the fence regarding this one. WA:MOFI was a lengthy and costly undertaking, and while I’m very proud of the end result, I’m not sure if I’m ready to get into another one.

My original plan for WA3 was to make the game primarily about exploration. You would have a huge world (in fact, several worlds) to discover, each with their own subset of adventures and independent storylines, all leading to a truly grand finale. Throw in a full-featured level-editor and a host of new goodies, and WA3 was (originally) planned to be “the biggest and the best” Wonderland Adventures game.

Every once in a while I get a spark of excitement (e.g. when I think of a new idea to add to a storyline), but at this time I just don’t see myself completing such a game anytime soon.

Instead, I am currently considering one of two routes. Either
a) have a lot of community involvement in the development of the game (even more than in WAMOFI)
or
b) release smaller games (at lower prices), i.e. more frequent releases with smaller (self-contained) adventure storylines, rather than the multi-world sprawling huge adventures that only get released every other year.

A few other independent developers are playing around with option (b) as well. Many game websites have started slashing prices, and are selling games for a fraction of the original $20 price-tag. This has forced developers of larger and more complex games (such as myself) to consider other options. For example, the developer of Aveyond (an indie RPG) is splitting the third game into a series of chapters, and releasing them a few months apart.

Either way my first step would be to flesh out the editor to include new puzzle elements and new options (such as a Hub system). I will keep you posted if/when things start to materialize.


Project #2 - Return to Return To Wonderland

No, that’s not the real title. But I am toying with a return to the original game series. Here are a few of the ideas that I had in mind:

* integrate a new level upload/download/comment system that could be linked to from within the game. Potentially a complete re-vamp of the player community.
* adding new puzzle elements (obviously), including some fairly drastic ones. I’d love to include the idea of multi-level puzzles (with stairs, elevators, etc) connecting multiple levels. This, however, would lead to a number of design problems that would need to be dealt with.
* updating the graphics - allow for visuals closer to Wonderland Adventures. I have a few ideas to do this without the necessity to make the editor any more complicated.
* keeping everything backwards compatible to the original games. In fact, allow the “import” of levels from WSW and TOW, for people who own the full versions, so that you could replay the “advanced” versions of all of those levels from one single program.

I must stress that not a single line of code has been written for this (and may never be). But I certainly keep getting back to this idea in my mind.


Project #3 - A 2D Wonderland Game

There are two concepts for a Wonderland game that is quite unlike the existing games. The first would be a side-view puzzle/action game. Think Super Mario crossed with Wonderland. I have some very nice ideas and designs for this one, with a neat way to get existing Wonderland elements to work in a side-view puzzle environment.

The second is a “Wonderland Olympia” game. This would be a complete departure from the existing mould.. It would consist of a large number of loosely connected mini-puzzles that I have had on paper (and in my head) for years. The closest comparison I could make would be a Mario Party or Wario Ware game. This would be a very casual, very fun, very light game.






So, these are three (four, actually) projects that I am thinking about. While I cannot promise that any of these will ever see the light of day, I thought it would be at least interesting for some of you to see what lies on the distant horizon of potential possibilities. :)

Until then!
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Post by popo » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:09 am

Well I'm glad it's not just us who suffer from Wonderland burn out, but it's a much more serious issue for you than for us. Maybe you need to stop being a one man band and get a proper workforce. Costly yes, but things would come to fruition much quicker.

As for your ideas ....

Wonderland Adventures 3
You have simply got to go with this one. You left the last on on a cliff hanger and I for one want to see what happens next. I would sooner have the large game which costs a bit more than the bite sized bits costing less. I get very frustrated when I pay for a game that lasts a very short time, even if it was cheap as chips. Maybe the editor could be a separate project which could be added later. I think WA2 came out well with the help of the community, although where level making is concerned there aren't many in the community who can do it and do it well.

Return to return to Wonderland
Even though I have 'gone off' RTW if another official one came out I would get back into it. The idea of multi level levels sounds great, but I'm not bothered about being able to integrate older levels into the new one. If you already have all the other games I can't see that there would be much to gain from just having enhanced graphics for them.

2D Wonderland game
This would not float my boat at all. I can't stand platform games, and I think it would be like taking a step backwards for Wonderland. I know you're into retro things though so if it makes you happy ... :wink:


So, for me, I would prefer the big, all singing, all dancing Wonderland Adventures 3, but I would have a go at anything you produce. I just hope you get your inspiration back soon. :D
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Post by Salin » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:17 am

popo wrote:Well I'm glad it's not just us who suffer from Wonderland burn out, but it's a much more serious issue for you than for us. Maybe you need to stop being a one man band and get a proper workforce. Costly yes, but things would come to fruition much quicker.

As for your ideas ....

Wonderland Adventures 3
You have simply got to go with this one. You left the last on on a cliff hanger and I for one want to see what happens next. I would sooner have the large game which costs a bit more than the bite sized bits costing less. I get very frustrated when I pay for a game that lasts a very short time, even if it was cheap as chips. Maybe the editor could be a separate project which could be added later. I think WA2 came out well with the help of the community, although where level making is concerned there aren't many in the community who can do it and do it well.



So, for me, I would prefer the big, all singing, all dancing Wonderland Adventures 3, but I would have a go at anything you produce. I just hope you get your inspiration back soon. :D
I'll second that, Pauline. :lol:

Patrick, I hope you'll get your inspiration back soon, and your health, off course. :stinkyhappy:
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Post by jdl » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:13 pm

Wonderland Adventures 3

Well, this seems to be my favorite one. I would love to see this be your next one. I really like exploration games such as Wonderland Adventures and MOFI has been and would hate to see this one being denyed.

Option (A): This option will work for sure based on how MOFI went.

Option (B): This may not work out for you because of how the Wonderland Adventures series works. You will have to keep writing the tutorials, and make sure the player has the items he or she needs to continue through the game.


Return To Return To Wonderland

Not really anything to say because of Popo's post. She's pretty much made her point with this one, and I agree with her.


2D Wonderland Game

Hmm... This seems very interesting! Although a 2D game would be a new start for the series, it wouldn't have the feel of Wonderland.

Another Game Suggestion!

As I was typing this, I was thinking of another game idea for you. As your traveling to... erm.... WA3 :wink: ... You must fight off "space invaders" :wink: with your ship. So think of it as another Intensity XS game, but WA themed. Sorry for the little winks. I didn't want to give away any spoilers.

I hope you get your inspiration back soon!
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Post by Emerald141 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:46 pm

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Post by billy bob » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:05 pm

Totally agree emerald.

I am VERY behind as I have only just got MOFI.... (although I am nearly always here (not exaggerating).....

I was being suspicious when I saw the updates.
I thought it was you trying to catch my attention again
like last time with the new users, but when I saw it I gasped with joy...

I totally agree with everyone here (accept myself, JUST KIDDING :? :lol:)

(hey I just realized saw is was backwards.....)

Thank you SOOOO much...

:!: CAN'T WAIT!!!!! :!:
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Post by jcvalcar2 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:32 pm

I’m sorry to hear about health problems. I hope and pray that all will be well for you very soon.

Well I guess I'll be the first to disagree. :lol:

I have totally enjoyed all of the Wonderland Series however I feel that RTW has kept things alive more so than the others because of the interaction with other members – creating, commenting and just plain brain straining fun. Not only have you given me hours of enjoyment but you allowed all of us to add to this experience by letting us add our own creations. With so many different mindsets there are endless possibilities for game play that will continue to keep the community alive for years to come. This has also kept us busy in between each of your new game releases. :wink:

I get so tired of these games that come out sounding great and expect to be entertained for hours only to find out it was just another waste of money. This Series has been the best game that I have ever purchased and would continue to pay the higher cost to get a game that is well worth the price. I don’t think you should cheapen it by selling the smaller games.

Having said all this I will continue to support the Series in whatever you decide but I would like to see RTW expand and then the other sequel released.
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Post by Midnight Synergy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:46 pm

Hi all, and thanks for the comments so far - keep them coming!

Regarding the price issue - I totally agree that the Wonderland games are worth what we charge. Given how much you pay to get two people to a 2 hour movie today, the long term value of the Wonderland games is ridiculous in comparion (and I'm not just saying that because I sell them! :)).

Problem is, the developer does not control the price on larger portals. Wonderland is for sale at $6.99 at one portal, same price as all other games (including ones that take barely more than an hour to complete). So the bite-sized chunks is one way for indies to work around that. It's stil very early going, so it's hard to tell how this will work out.

This, BTW, is one reason for the super-sale going on at Midnight Synergy... I don't feel it is fair for me to charge more for the same game, when it is available cheaper somewhere else (although I appreciate that some of you still "buy local", even when the price was higher). The other reason is simply business oriented - I want to see if MS could survive at these prices by running it as a sale for a few months. We'll see how that strategy works out as well.
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Post by popo » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:03 pm

If you did go with the smaller chunks for WA3, would it be possible to be able to link them all together into one big game, or even to make smaller chunks to sell on other sites and make the big one to sell on here, at the higher price?

I haven't noticed the price of games coming down, but I don't buy many downloadable games, I usually buy them on CD so I can sell them again when I've finished with them (on Amazon :wink: ). The games I buy usually fall into one of 3 prices, £16.99, £24.99 or £29.99, and I haven't seen these prices changing. Considering your games fall into the lower end of these prices, I think they are well worth the money and I would stop selling them on the sites that force you to sell them cheaper. Especially RTW as that is the game that keeps on giving. 8)
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Post by maxnick » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:45 pm

I like Project #1 (WA3) the best but smaller seprate games would be OK...

Just as long as they continue the WA story line :) :)
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Post by Midnight Synergy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:05 pm

For the smaller games, I don't think they would "link up" to become WA3. I know that's the route that Aveyond has taken, where each chapter leads into the next part of the story. This would be akin to breaking up WAMOFI - ending the first game when you reach the stone gates, the next game starts with the **** village (name of village not mentioned for those who haven't played that far yet), etc.

I'm not crazy about the idea myself, it makes things very linear. I'm thinking more of the lines of a separate series, e.g. "Tales of Wonderland". The framework would be an elder Stinker reading from the great book of Stinker Stories to a bunch of wee Stinkers. Each story would be a self-contained game. E.g. one story could be what happened when a group of Stinkers returned to the Creepy Keep. Another could chronicle an expedition deeper into the Forbidden Forest. Etc. The original WA3 storyline could be condensed for one of these stories, or just be put on hold for a "glorious" ;) return a little later down the road.
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Post by cbloopy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:35 pm

All I know is, whichever one of the games you decide to tackle, I'll be lining up right here to buy it! :wink: :lol: 8)

I would definitely love to see a "grand finale" style WA3, but I absolutely wouldn't mind if you delay that and do a bunch of "mini-stories" first, or have a "2D Wonderland Game" in between to add variety.

Just hope you get through your creativity rut soon! Perhaps it's time to use up some vacation days? :wink:
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Post by cbloopy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:48 pm

Another thing to think about is to make the WA Editor more popular, ideally as popular as the RTW Editor right now. That would make it more feasible to apply WSW-style development, where most of the levels were designed by the community if I recall. WSW-style development seems particularly suited to the "mini-stories" idea.

It seems most people were overwhelmed by the shear number of options exposed in WA Editor (and having 3 separate editor programs in earlier versions probably didn't help). But while a lot of the options are nice to have, very few are absolutely essential. So perhaps having a "dumbed down" Editor mode with fewer options (plus throwing in the retro monsters) can attract more people to try out the WA Editor? Then with sufficient number of talented WA Editor level designers established, WSW-style development for the WA series could become a reality.

I suppose that's not too far off (though in an opposite direction) from the idea of bringing some of the WA features into RTW (per some of what you mentioned for "Return to Return to Wonderland").
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Post by Qloof234 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:09 pm

Guess I'll throw in my own two cents here...

Wonderland Adventures 3

The original idea that you have listed for this had me bouncing up and down in my computer chair out of excitement - I would love, love, LOVE a game like that. I've never really been one to take a fancy to RPGs, but this really makes me excited.

Return to Return to Wonderland

Graphics like WA without a more complicated editor? YES.

Honestly though, that's a must-have for RTW. Its graphics are nice, but a bit... simplistic, if you ask me. As for some "drastic" new objects; add one called the Hollow Pen that lets you change the past.

Please? :lol:

Okay, just kidding. I can't wait to see where this goes.

2D Wonderland

<3

That's all I have to say about that. :wink:
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A return to retro retro Return To Return To Wonderland

Post by VirtLands » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:17 pm

Hello Patrick...

I just read your 'Midnight Synergy Update', and,
you have my positive votes on the following:

A: Return To Return To Wonderland (Image)

B: I chose option (b):

Code: Select all

 "b&#41; release smaller games &#40;at lower prices&#41;, i.e. more frequent releases with smaller &#40;self-contained&#41; adventure storylines, rather than the multi-world sprawling huge adventures that only get released every other year. ";

In my opinion, smaller self contained releases means more flexibility,
more imagination, and therefore more success.

C: Your "Project 2" ideas are excellent.

Code: Select all

"* adding new puzzle elements &#40;obviously&#41;, including some fairly drastic ones. I’d love to include the idea of multi-level puzzles &#40;with stairs, elevators, etc&#41; connecting multiple levels. This, however, would lead to a number of design problems that would need to be dealt with. "
Multilevel puzzles would be very addicting, there could be stairs,
elevators, stairs that collapse,
teleporters that transport you Up & Down,
(not just in the XY plane), ....
prisms & reflectors that fire vertically,
Scouges that fire vertically.
Create a special pancake effect where in some cases an entire
level may disappear, leaving the remaining levels to play.

Trampolines may be used to hop from a lower edge to a higher
edge, (and not restricted to just one same level as we have now.)

Boxes (& Cubes) may be stacked on top of each other to create
safe landing zones, perhaps a fall from one box-height is considered
safe, while a fall from two box-heights causes Stinky to die.

Add gravity effects too,...
for example, a rolling boulder on
an upper level may fall through a 'hole' and continue
rolling on the lower level.

Add laser elements to make the game super complex.
Lasers of different colors (or wavelengths) may combine to
create new colors, or, special splitters may split white light
into component colors, similar I guess to the Aargon Games series.

In our current case, cannon fire (or scouge fire) destroys boxes
and prisms. You may alter it so that certain boxes are sensitive
to only certain colors of lasers and therefore can only be destroyed
that way.

These are just some strange ideas that I've had.

Code: Select all

Either way my first step would be to flesh out the editor to include new puzzle elements and new options &#40;such as a Hub system&#41;. I will keep you posted if/when things start to materialize.
Sounds interesting, what is a HUB system ?
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Post by wonderlandlover » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:45 pm

I think all of the ideas are great ones; I am game to just about anything you would try, because these are simply awesome games.

I know I bought one of the games through another portal, and wish now that I hadn't. I believe it was Secret Worlds. It is so nice that you will allow us to download if we lose our game. RTW is hands down the best deal in games out there. Nothing really compares, and the game is worth every penny. The editor and community are brilliant.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to play anymore, because I have had to reformat my computer several times in the past year. It is very frustrating.

I did want to say, though, that I am not too sure about breaking games into smaller bits. I have played all the Aveyonds, and this last one was too short. I think in the end it will turn more people off, except the very dedicated ones. I think games have a much more lasting value, plus will get higher player reviews when they are longer.
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Post by slimm tom » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:09 pm

I like your ideas, Patrick, but I would go with option (a). This worked well with MOFI, and with even more community involvement, this is sure to turn out as a success.

'Tales of Wonderland' sounds great as a separate series, I would definitely give that a try too..
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Post by Marinus » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:45 pm

Virtlands wrote:what is a HUB system ?
I'm not quite sure, maybe I'm talking nonsense but here is what's a HUB in WA or WA MOFI:
http://pcpuzzle.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... hlight=hub
If it's something totally different, I'm also curious.
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Post by Qloof234 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:20 pm

Yeah, that's what the hub is. Another term for it would be the overworld. :wink:
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Post by gameboy991 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:30 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
That's all I have to say on that. These are the BEST ideas I have EVER heard! You have my support with this! WA3 and the multi-level levels sound AWESOME! :D
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Post by billy bob » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:38 pm

Please don't use that many smilies.... :roll:
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Post by gameboy991 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:35 am

If you say so. :roll: :lol:
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Post by Com Rante » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:06 am

I will say that all three of the ideas you shared in your post are creative.

Setting up a new formula for WA3 would definitely give that series a breath of fresh air in a more creative way than just adding new gameplay elements. Episodic WA would be a different thing to try, though I've only seen the concept work well in one instance.

Your ideas for a spiritual successor to RTW are basically identical to an idea I've been playing around with personally. This would be awesome. Multi-floor levels would rejuvenate the gameplay of the classic Wonderland games and a much needed graphical make-over would make those games more appealing. I personally say yes to this!

2D Wonderland? Heck yeah, if the game looks like the illustrations from WSW (I guess you would need to hire the same artist...). Mixing elements of Super Mario and Wonderland would be very interesting and would take the series in totally different direction. Perhaps you could do 2D gameplay in a 3D world, similiar to games like Klonoa and SSB?

Wonderland Olympia, would this game be based on puzzles similiar to those found in the Midnight Post? If so, that idea could be really cool if done well. Not exactly my cup of tea, but I'm a jaded gamer who needs to broaden his ideas on video games.

All these ideas are great. They are also all ambitious. I'd be down with any of these games. Its good to see that MS isn't dead! :)
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Post by Midnight Synergy » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:43 am

Thanks all for the kind replies.

I will definitely keep you all up to date if/when things start moving again. Just don't hold your breath - I've seen molasses move faster than Midnight Synergy these days! :)
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Post by Kilicool64 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:53 pm

Tales of Wonderland and a sequel to RTW both sound interesting.

I can wait for WA 3 but when it's released I want an editor for it, too.

I'm not sure if I'd like a 2D Wonderland game. You should work on other games first.
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Post by Emerald141 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:26 pm

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Post by cbloopy » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:18 pm

Emerald141 wrote:I think it might help to get some more attention to the WA Editor if you made a version where you can actually see an object's options after you place it, and can see actually visual changes. :D
Perhaps. But consider that things in the RTW Editor look even less like they appear in the actual game, yet there are much more activity in creating and playing levels in the RTW Editor. So while what-you-see-is-what-you-get is a good thing to attain to, I'm not sure that it is a must have to attract more level designers for WA Editor.
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Post by bround » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:05 am

I think Return To Return To Wonderland can be Return to Wonderland Once Again
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Post by lynx204 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:38 am

Well, no one seems to like WSW :cry:, but I am a huge WSW fan, and
would really love another game series themed like that. :D

Maybe one on a map or with hidden levels or puzzle elements... pweez?? :shock: :D :lol:
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Post by billy bob » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:57 am

lynx204 wrote:Well, no one seems to like WSW :cry:, but I am a huge WSW fan, and
would really love another game series themed like that. :D

Maybe one on a map or with hidden levels or puzzle elements... pweez?? :shock: :D :lol:
totally agree, I am not going to lie to you, that was my favourite game too. :) :) :)

They were all brilliant but especially that one! :D
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