General Guidelines for creating Levels

[Kaboom!]

Would anyone agree to some basic rules being set?

Yes, I do. Here is my point of view; if anybody can add one or more rules, please reply to this topic.

1. No wide open spaces
* Many levels seem to have big open spaces with nothing in it (or just coins). This can make the level very boring and visually weak.

2. No repeated challenges
* Some levels may be big, but with just one point (repeatedly). E.g. Imagine you have lots of water holes, all of them with a box behind. The main point is just to push a the boxes repeteadly to water. You can even complete the level just pressing one arow!!!

3. Must HAVE A SOLUTION
* All levels MUST be 100% possible to complete, catching all coins, Bonus and in the provided time limit.

4. No excessive (or repeatedly) baddies
* If you create a level with: e.g. 200 chompers and the only thing you must do is wait untill they get blasted or don't catch you will make the level very frustrating and boring. (Imagine you have to wait about 5 minutes 'till they get killed! )

5. Not too big!
* If you create a wide big level, it may not run very smootly in some older pc's and may even show off the dreaded MAV!

6. No excessive objects
* If you create a level with too much objects it will not run very well in some users' pc's and even get a crash.

7. Must have an exit!
* All levels need at least one exit. Don't add more than 4.

If someone wants to add more suggestion, please reply t this topic.

[lgrapes]

Good morning Kaboom

Although I agree with most of what you stated I think that a more appropriate solution would be to maybe create a new place to post these levels...Some of the members creating these levels may just like to create visuals or simple levels maybe due to age or their own personal likes.

Lori

[Kaboom!]

Maybe... Let's just see if Patrick will allow that.

[popo]

There's nothing wrong with purely visual levels as long as you state that they are visual in the heading or description of the level. Therefore an exit is not always necessary.

Also some levels are meant not to be finished - eg. my Zoo level earlier this year was impossible to finish, but that was intentional, it was an April Fools joke.

I don't think you can generalise on what's good and what's not, but posting levels that just have a few walls and nothing else is pointless.

[Kaboom!]

nono

This thread was made with rules for "normal" levels. Not visual, not pranks, nothing. I mean really normal levels!!

[popo]

And what is a 'normal' level?

[lgrapes]

And what is a 'normal' level?

I agree...who is to say what is normal...

[Kaboom!]

Normal level - Level wich is meant to play; not just see! A level wich isn't too much easy (or hard). A level meant to entertain people. With a solution and a level who follows the rules posted above.

that is my concept of "normal level".

yes... I am nobody to say what is a normal level or not. forgrt the hole thread!

[Davimad]

Thank you for trying Kaboom, I think you may have misinterpreted what
was meant by 'basic rules'.

You can't force people to make levels a certain way, all the fun would be lost.

I am talking more about the forum being awash with idle chit chat.

We are all guilty of that at times, probably I am the biggest contributor.

PM's are the answer to this, then we can chatter away without annoying others.

The other thing I find so annoying is, people asking for comments on their levels.
Sometimes the level has only been posted a short time, we aren't getting
a chance to play it first!

The thing to remember is, there's other level makers waiting for feedback.
We have to encourage ALL of them.


M.A.D.

[majic1]

Rules for levels??? I TOTALLY & COMPLETELY disagree with that. That's somewhat ridiculous. Some levels are posted JUST for the visual effect; others are not complete levels, but just to show something new or quirky. The only levels that shouldn't be posted (in my opinion) are those where the author states something like, "I couldn't finish it, I hope you can!" There have been a few of those. Other than that, we should be free to post ANY kind of level we wish. And lately, it doesn't really seem to matter anyway - new levels are shoved to the bottom so fast by all the garbage being posted. It's VERY discouraging. I shouldn't HAVE to go check unviewed posts - not to mention, it doesn't seem to make much difference, for me anyway - I still get a whole list of posts that have nothing to do with anything.

[Kaboom!]

Thank you for trying Kaboom, I think you may have misinterpreted what
was meant by 'basic rules'.

You can't force people to make levels a certain way, all the fun would be lost.

I am talking more about the forum being awash with idle chit chat.

We are all guilty of that at times, probably I am the biggest contributor.

PM's are the answer to this, then we can chatter away without annoying others.

The other thing I find so annoying is, people asking for comments on their levels.
Sometimes the level has only been posted a short time, we aren't getting
a chance to play it first!

The thing to remember is, there's other level makers waiting for feedback.
We have to encourage ALL of them.


M.A.D.

Rules for levels??? I TOTALLY & COMPLETELY disagree with that. That's somewhat ridiculous. Some levels are posted JUST for the visual effect; others are not complete levels, but just to show something new or quirky. The only levels that shouldn't be posted (in my opinion) are those where the author states something like, "I couldn't finish it, I hope you can!" There have been a few of those. Other than that, we should be free to post ANY kind of level we wish. And lately, it doesn't really seem to matter anyway - new levels are shoved to the bottom so fast by all the garbage being posted. It's VERY discouraging. I shouldn't HAVE to go check unviewed posts - not to mention, it doesn't seem to make much difference, for me anyway - I still get a whole list of posts that have nothing to do with anything.
_________________
WDC
SAWASSUM!!!!!

yes... I am nobody to say what is a normal level or not. forgrt the hole thread!

[majic1]

I don't think we should just forget the whole thread!! This is a very interesting topic and one that probably needed to be opened up and discussed!! So, in that way, you did a good thing Kaboom!!!

[Davimad]

I agree with majic1, you have brought this to everyone's attention Kaboom.

Other members can give their opinion on the subject and maybe we will get some fresh ideas.

Let's wait and see, shall we?


M.A.D.

[LinkyNStoof]

Yes, I do. Here is my point of view; if anybody can add one or more rules, please reply to this topic.

The only thing I should add is "rule" #8: there will be times for which it makes sense to break all of the aforementioned rules.

For example:

1. No wide open spaces
* Many levels seem to have big open spaces with nothing in it (or just coins). This can make the level very boring and visually weak.

While it's generally true that having more game elements (as opposed to just the basic floors and coins) do lead to more interesting interaction with the player, perhaps I do want to create a relatively large section where the coins are arranged so that if you zoom out via alt-x, they form some sort of picture, maybe even a picture representing a clue to some section of the level, or a clue to some other level in a series of level I've released.

2. No repeated challenges
* Some levels may be big, but with just one point (repeatedly). E.g. Imagine you have lots of water holes, all of them with a box behind. The main point is just to push a the boxes repeteadly to water. You can even complete the level just pressing one arow!!!

I think most people will agree that forcing someone to repeatedly do the same thing consecutively many many times will eventually become boring, so the trick is to find a correct balance of repetitions.

Or maybe if you're clever, you can create a level such that there're two alternate paths to some location. One of them is obvious but highly tedious, but the other one is much more non-obvious, but less tedious, and has additional bonus coins. Now your level technically has a "repeated challenge" section but its less of an issue, since the repetition is not forced on the player.

3. Must HAVE A SOLUTION
* All levels MUST be 100% possible to complete, catching all coins, Bonus and in the provided time limit.

99% of the time this is true, though there definitely have been levels created here, clearly marked as a "visual" rather than a true level (note, I'm not talking about levels with pretty designs; try searching for some of DiscGolfer's levels), for which having a solution is of secondary importance.

Moreover, if you more strictly define a solution as being able to catch all coins, and especially bonus coins, that can be overly restricting in certain cases. I'll agree that the general expectation is all rainbow conis should be collectable, even if there are ways to get to the exit without collecting them all. On the other hand, maybe I want to create a level with an area dense of trees, with a sign nearby saying "warning: haunted forest! Do no enter!", and sprinkle a few bonus coins it it to tempt the player, but have it so that if you do enter, somewhere along the way you'll step on, say, a conveyor belt obscured by trees, and will then be trapped in the forest forever.

In that case, I see nothing wrong with having those bonus coins which are not collectable.

4. No excessive (or repeatedly) baddies
* If you create a level with: e.g. 200 chompers and the only thing you must do is wait untill they get blasted or don't catch you will make the level very frustrating and boring. (Imagine you have to wait about 5 minutes 'till they get killed! )

This really goes in line with rule #1, the idea being to avoid creating places/times in the level where there's a decided lack of user interaction, whether it's visual or gameplay.

So for example, maybe I do want to make a section that'll take one or two minutes for the baddies to clear out. But now, say I had it so that if you clear if all the baddies were cleared out, there'll be none to hold down a gate of a certain color, and so one critical section of a level, which is currently accessible, will be permanently shut out after all the baddies were cleared. As a result, you have to race to get that section completed before you get shut out. And so even though we do have a section of "excessive baddies", it actually turned out here to add a bit to the level's dynamics.

5. Not too big!
* If you create a wide big level, it may not run very smootly in some older pc's and may even show off the dreaded MAV!

We've already figured out a good compromise for this sort of thing back when Robbie created a few "Adventure Land" levels, which had definitely approached the 99x99 limit. The idea is to offer two versions, one that has the entire level in its 99x99 glory, and the other being a series of smaller levels, each representing a section of the big level. That way, those who can play the 99x99 will have the option to do so, while those whose computers barf on the 99x99 can still play the section-by-section version.

6. No excessive objects
* If you create a level with too much objects it will not run very well in some users' pc's and even get a crash.

I really can't add much to do this, since Patrick did mention that the game engine is designed to only handle 100 of each type of objects, and that using too many can lead to unpredicable results.

Though in practice, this rarely occurs unless you're making very big levels. Ultimately, rather than putting rules about how many objects to create etc., a better rule that takes care of all this is: please playtest your level at least once before releasing it! That way you'll know if something unexpected occurs.

7. Must have an exit!
* All levels need at least one exit. Don't add more than 4.

If it's one of those "purely visual" level where it's not meant to be "solved" (see my comment on rule 3), then the exit would not be needed.

More importantly though, no reason to not have more than 4 exits. Maybe some of the exits are "fake" in that they are not actually reachable (preferably in an non-obvious way so that the player will still try to reach it, but can't). Maybe one exit is easy and safe to reach, but the way to the other exit is much more dangerous, but also has loads of bonus coins. Or maybe I actually want to use the exit to represent something other than an exit, and so I'd purposely put it on top of a "X"ed floor so it is unreachable. And so forth.
--------------------
So in conclusion, what matters most is to be creative. Rules can sometimes be useful guidelines, but remember that there'll always be an occasion where you might want to break one or more rules.

[Kaboom!]

Cound be more with you!

Some guidelines sometimes must be broken.

[majic1]

Well, as I said previously, I really don't think we should have "rules" for what is in the levels we submit.

[TheoX]

yes, I agree with you guys too
btw-LNS mentioned alt-x in that long post... does anyone have any clue why alt-x might not (it doesn't) work on my computer?

[LinkyNStoof]

does anyone have any clue why alt-x might not (it doesn't) work on my computer?

You need to use the keys on the numeric keypad, you know, the one that has 1-9 arranged in a 3x3 arrangement, not the ones across the top row of the keyboard.

If that still doesn't work, try turning NumLock on first.

If that still fails, PM Patrick and yell at him.

[Kaboom!]

Hi all
I just changed the title of the post for "General Guidelines for creating levels". I think it's more appropriate.

[Jersey]

Can I have a say too?

I know I've been kind of quiet lately, and it's not just because of my real life obligations.

Most nights, I only have a couple of hours to go on-line. I usually play a few levels, and then come in to see what's up, and download more levels.

For some reason, when I select "View posts since last visit" quite often, I get 0 results. Not sure why, I could understand it if I was in and out of the board, but this is when I first come in.

But, I digress.

POSTING COMMENTS

My problem is, with so many new levels coming out, and so many "rubbish" posts, the girls are right, everything gets shifted to the bottom, and I just don't have the time, or the patience to bounce around looking for a level I played to make a comment. I know myself what it's like not to have a response, and it's only fair to everyone who posts that someone says something about their levels.

ASKING FOR HELP

Then there are the levels where people are asking for help. I have asked for sooooo much help myself, that I cannot imagine not having this particular feature in the forum.

This is also a great way to meet new players. They may not always post levels, but if they are asking for help, and either not getting a response, or the responses take too long because their questions get shuffled down, why would they want to post their own creations, or join in the discussions?

I myself have had to wait for nearly a day and a half before anyone responds, and it kind of reminds me of being a kid on the playground, and no one wants to play with me.

NEW FORUM

I don't know how big the Discussion Board can be, but my thought was that we create a new forum just for assistance.

Here, people could post their questions regarding DRTW, RTW or requesting assistance when creating their own levels. That way, those posts don't have to be viewed by people who can't help because they are just as lost as the requester, or don't like to give assistance for whatever reason (lack of time, they just don't know the answer, or are just too shy to offer help).

IDENTIFYING LEVELS

We already post new stuff with "New Level" in the title, so people could add "Help Needed" followed by the area they are having problems with (like many do already when they need help with a specific level "Help! DRTW W4/L6" ie). Anyone cruising the sites would know instantly whether or not they could help, and respond appropriately.

We should also be sure to post in the appropriate forums, General Discussions are just that, discussions. Not requesting assistance, or posting new levels. This is where we should be posting our little gigglefests that we all used to enjoy so much. That way, we aren't clogging the Classic and Deluxe forums with unrelated stuff.

Classic Levels should be reserved for classic levels created by "us".

Deluxe Levels should be treated the same. Only Deluxe levels created by us would be uploaded here.

A new "Assistance Needed" forum would allow people to ask for help for both RTW and DRTW game levels.

Until we find out if an assistance forum can be created, we should post "Help! RTW" in Classic Levels and "Help! DRTW" in Deluxe.

As for levels created for visual purposes only, please state that in the title when you post for example "Visual Level - Stinky's New Pool"

As for indicating whether or not a level is simple or complex as the creator intends it to be, it should be posted as "New Level *Easy* E is for Easter" (didn't want to insult anyone, so I used one of my levels ) or "New Level *Hard* Y is for Yellow" Just like we do for "Kiddie Levels". This would help all players who prefer to play different styles.

CUSTOM CONTENT

Anyone who wants to post new models, or has information that would assist with the creations of new goodies should upoad only in Custom Content. I have only been in there once, and I see that for the most part, that's all that has been posted in there, but I see a few things that don't give a good description of what the problems is. Posting "Help" doesn't tell a viewer whether or not they can assist, so they have to stop in to check it out, and then find out they can't help. This gets very frustrating, for both the poster and the viewer.

RESPONSE TIME

It should be pointed out that WE ALL COME FROM DIFFERENT TIME ZONES and have real lives that often prevent people from responding quickly to something.

With that in mind, perhaps a creator should state in his/her post that he/she is going to be out of town for a week, or working late for a day or two, or lives in another country that is more than 4 hours ahead or behind the majority of players. ( I'm behind everyone by about 4 - 6 hours, based on players from the UK and the USA, so I don't expect a response until the next day at the earliest.) This will alert players not to expect an immediate reply when they ask for help.

I'm not saying that you have to post your vacation/work schedule, but if for instance I post something tonight, and I know that I'm not home tomorrow, and am working late on Thursday, I would say in my level post that I'm not going to be around for a few days, but will respond to questions upon my return. Then you know I'm not just ignoring you, and other players will help until I can get back.

Also take into consideration, that if you are posting at 12:00 p.m. in your time zone, many people won't even see it until later in the day, or even the next day. Yes, some people are on-line at odd times of the day, but you shouldn't expect a response right away.

Keep in mind that we need time to play new levels before we can comment on them, just like Davimad said.

I only pop in for a few minutes and download several levels at once, but don't have time to play them for a day or two. I'm not being rude or ignoring you, and I'm sure we are all the same way. We are playing the levels, but not coming right back on-line immediately after to post. This is too time-consuming, so many of us wait until our "forum time" to comment on all the levels we played, as opposed to jumping back and forth.

That being said, when you post a new level, wait for at least a day before getting "ansy" and asking for a response. If you have asked for help, wait at least half a day before adding a second request, which will bring your post up to the top of the forum again.

------------------------------------------------------

Once again Jersey has rambled on, and someone has to knock her off the sopabox!

That's just my opinion folks, take it or leave it as you will.

G'night all!

[majic1]

You raised some interesting points! The only thing I really disagree with is:

Until we find out if an assistance forum can be created, we should post "Help! RTW" in Classic Levels and "Help! DRTW" in Deluxe.

Levels ONLY should be posted in either level forum. We have so many levels being posted, we don't really need any other posts added to either one of these forums. Midnight Synergy created the Gen. Disc. Forum for this purpose (helping each other) and other discussions that didn't involve uploading a level.

[Jersey]

Right you are majic, my mistake.

If we posted any requests for assitance in the G/F, they should still be identified as Help! RTW or DRTW as we have been doing.

I think that's what I wanted to say, and got myself confused...happens alot!