Is different wrong?

[Marinus]

Some of you may know that I'm autistic and that I've a different way of thinking then most people. Sometimes that causes problems with communication. Too bad, but that's life. Because of that different way of thinking, when I play a level that's to be solved at more then one way, I sometimes or maybe often solve it the wrong way. And when I finally found that wrong way it's very hard, sometimes maybe impossible to me to find the right way. (With the right way I mean the way the levelmaker had in mind.) And of course it's nice that I at least found a way to solve it, but it's the wrong way, so actually I didn't really solve it.

Now is it so that, when someone can't solve a level at all and asks for help, everyone is very helpful to give hints. But when I say that I solved a level at the wrong way, and ask for help to find the right way, I sometimes get the idea that I'm the bad guy who does it wrong on purpose. And it's not only someones signature that tells me to hit myself with the loophole paddle, it's also something that I think to read between the lines in a manner of speaking, or some other way.

Someone says that's about enjoying a level and have fun, and I totally agree. But when I know I did it the wrong way, and I don't even know what's the right way... Well then I'm not quite satisfied and don't have that much fun as when I do it the right way.

Someone else says that's about getting a gold star. But I think everyone will agree with me, if there's a level where it's possible to go directly to the exit, without really playing the whole level, there is no use in it. So when I only can play a level the wrong way, I get a gold star, ok, but actually I don't really deserve it. I only earned it by "cheating".

So what shall I do? Shall I lie and say:"I can't solve the level, please help"? Shall I say:"I solved it but maybe not the right way, please tell me"? Shall I ask:"What's the box/sphere/button/etc. for?"? Or shall I simply say nothing or:"Nice level, Thanks" and go on with my life as a "cheater"?

Maybe there is no correct answer on those questions. Everyone is different. I think everyone should try to imagine how other people are, think and feel. Some people are completely different. Other people are more like each other. For people who are autistic it's very hard to imagine how other people are. I do my best, but I know I make mistakes. Sorry.

[Salin]

I'm sorry you feel that way, Marinus!
I can't tell you what's right or wrong to do. I have seen some levelmakers that are happy for any feedback/cry for help, and some that seems to get hurt by it. We're all different. I would like to know what people think, their likes and dislikes. I'd also like to know if there's more than one solution in my levels (wich I don't make anymore), I think that's cool.
Cheer up bud, I think you should just be yourself.

[mqdar]

So what shall I do? Shall I lie and say:"I can't solve the level, please help"? Shall I say:"I solved it but maybe not the right way, please tell me"? Shall I ask:"What's the box/sphere/button/etc. for?"? Or shall I simply say nothing or:"Nice level, Thanks" and go on with my life as a "cheater"?

Is this a good example of 'autistic'? Because it doesn't seem like a difficult question to me. Why can't you answer it yourself? Just wondering.

[Marinus]

Thanks Inger

Darshan, I don't know, right now this moment, how to explain you.

[Pat]

Marinus, if doesn't make a darned bit of difference how you finish a level, solved is solved. If you have questions, then ask. Some people have a better way of answering than others, so don't worry about it .

Maybe you are making more out of this than you need to....the main object for you is to have a good time.

[jdl]

Marinus, if doesn't make a darned bit of difference how you finish a level, solved is solved. If you have questions, then ask. Some people have a better way of answering than others, so don't worry about it .

Maybe you are making more out of this than you need to....the main object for you is to have a good time.

Yes, exactly! You should just be yourself! We all have questions, and we all have answers. Finished is finished, thats the whole point of the level, and what Stinky, Loof, Quokie, and Peegue are ment to do! I hope that makes you feel better.

[laura n.]

Marinus, I was gonna say exactly what Pat said.... solved is solved no matter how you do it
I can't manage to get most levels done without some sort of help/hint.. my hat is off to you for finding "alternative solutions"

Chill out honey, enjoy the game for what it is.. a game to enjoy

[Loirae]

Marinus, as a mother of an Autistic Wonderland player (and level maker), I have an idea where you're coming from. While I agree that "as long as you finish the level" is a good way to view playing, I also understand that in the Autistic world, Rules and Order are the primary motivators. Everything has rules. Everything has order. And if rules are broken or things are out of order, then it messes with your head. Or, as my son says, "It shakes my brain."

So, I think what you're saying is that as an Autistic person, you understand that the level maker had a certain order and set of rules that s/he expected us to follow when playing and you feel like you are not following that. You're playing it out of order.

It would be like coloring a rainbow Blue, Orange, Red, Green, Purple, Yellow instead of Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple - sure all the colors are there and that's what's important, but can it still be defined as a rainbow? Can solving a level out of order be called solving it, or is it just finishing it?

And yes, to an Autistic player, there is probably a huge difference, in case people wonder. At least, to my son there is a difference and it sounds like to you there is, too.

It's a hard thing to understand for those of us who aren't Autistic. I've been living with it for 7 years and still have a hard time understanding why certain things have to be just so and why other things can be what seems total chaos.

Keep playing. When you find an alternate solution try to remember that while you may be frustrated with yourself, some of us marvel at your ability to see things in a different way.

At least, I do.

I wish you well, Marinus.

[Marinus]

Thank you all!

Loirae, I think you understand me pretty well. I'll think about it. Maybe I'll say more about it tomorrow or later. Thanks!

[kiki]

Marinus please just carry on as you have been all along, you are a valued member of this forum and your feedback is very welcomed.

I always appreciate any and all the help you give.
Carry on bud!

[Muzozavr]

My opinion:
If this loophole simplifies the puzzle to the point where there's no challenge (forgotten exit gate, for example) you should try to figure out the "proper" way. I know I usually try and it's always a lot of fun. If the loophole doesn't simplify the puzzle that much, or by itself requires enough ingenuity to compare with the level itself, you've deserved it.

Like in "Portal" you can totally skip chamber 14 by two portals, or in chamber 15 skip the energy ball puzzle and just stand on one of the buttons, then shoot a portal through the exit door, but it requires more thinking than the whole level. It's not easy to come up with it.

And really, if you have gripe with alternate solutions, you should go and see the old posts from Bearsland. It's ALWAYS an alternate solution when a level comes to him!!

[Marinus]

Thanks, Kiki and Muzozavr, that makes me feel better.

I agree with you Muzo, but my problem is: actually I always like to know the "proper" way, even if I've only one or two items unused. For those items must have a purpose. I don't know Bearsland for he was here before my time, but I think I might like him. After all, if I didn't find that alternate solution for that "Original Wonderland" level, I might have never been here at all.

Loirae, I think you're right about rules and order, at least when they have a clear purpose. Probably I've a rule in my head that things must be clear. Many things in life are confusing, a game may be confusing in the beginning, but in the end it has to be clear. In the meantime I've learned that there always will be confusing things, but it's not easy to accept that.

I think you son can be happy for having an understanding mother who knows about autism. When I was that age, no-one had ever heard of it, and I was just a strange little boy.

[VirtLands]

Dear Marinus,

...some level makers don't care whether their levels are solved
their "right way" or someone else's "wrong way.

As for me, I am thrilled when anyone finds 'leaks' or
errors in any level that I make.

Now, all that I have to do is take the time to make some levels.
Gee, I've been so busy with stuff lately.

Good Luck with your quest to find unintentional 'solutions'.

[Marinus]

Thanks Virtlands. Well if you post a level I'll try to play it the right way, and if I find a different way, I'll tell you.

[Dizzy1]

Most of us are well aware of your autism, as you speak of it quite often. I’m very sorry about that. Are you slightly autistic, as you’ve stated before, or worse now? I have an autistic, friend of the family and he is incapable of doing even the simplest of tasks. You don’t come across as being that way and that’s fantastic! You’re lucky! You seem to understand and relate to things astoundingly well. You seem sensitive, caring and able to express your feelings in a way that most people who don’t have autism would envy...which leads us to the following questions.

It seems there are level-makers who do not care if you talk about the mistakes of their levels and there are those who do. I think it depends on the extent of your comments. If you know someone doesn’t appreciate the comments from you, then either have the courtesy to not comment at all, or just say thanks and move on…let it go! Because if you know it affects them in a negative way, to the point of discouraging them from making levels ever again, why would you do it? Why would you have no respect for their feelings and keep trying to force your way of thinking on them? Why wouldn’t you be discreet about it and just stop?

They are the way they are….as you, are the way you are.

Just wondering.

[Midnight Synergy]

I think (if I may) that people's wishes should be respected on both sides of the issue.

From the level-solvers perspective: If someone is happy to find alternate solutions, go for it. If someone would rather not, and likes to only work with the "right" solution, that is fine to.

From the level-makers perspective: If a levelmaker states that he/she would rather not have alternate solutions pointed out as "mistakes", then that should be respected, too.

[Dizzy1]

From the level-makers perspective: If a levelmaker states that he/she would rather not have alternate solutions pointed out as "mistakes", then that should be respected, too.

Thank you Patrick.

Edit: I'm going to rephrase what I said before: There have been, and probably always will be several ways to solve my levels. Some I may know about and some I may not. I only make them for fun; not to have only one specific way. So it doesn't matter how you solve it and you don't necessarily need to tell me it's a loophole. Mistake's are common in my levels. I'm not an expert level maker. If there's a major loophole, I don't mind a PM being sent to me about it.

[Marinus]

Thank you for replying on this Dizzy. I really hope we can solve this together.

Are you slightly autistic, as you’ve stated before, or worse now?

I can't remember that I told it was slightly, but I told you once about the problems it causes in whole life.

There are indeed different kinds of autism. I know there are autistic people who have a pretty low IQ and are incapable of doing even the simplest of tasks, just like you say about the friend you're talking about. But there are also autistic people, like me, who have some problems to understand or imagine how other people are or feel, but who can compensate that partly because they have a bit higher IQ then most people. Some people are calling autism a disease or a disorder, and in the first case of someone with a pretty low IQ maybe that's the right name for it, but in my case I'd rather call it a "being different"

If you know someone doesn’t appreciate the comments from you,
.......
Why wouldn’t you be discreet about it and just stop?

Maybe you have something against me personal, but you also know it was about a question I asked you in a PM, about a level which was special to me because I had a little part in it by making the walls and chosing the texture, but I still don't know how to play it the intended way.
When you're willing to tell other people how to play your level if they ask, but not me, for I already solved it the wrong way, because of my different way of thinking, my "being different", I feel rather discriminated for it. You're talking about having respect for your feelings, and I really want to. Would you please respect mine?

From the level-solvers perspective: If someone is happy to find alternate solutions, go for it. If someone would rather not, and likes to only work with the "right" solution, that is fine to.

That seems to me as if I have the choice which way I play a level, either the right way or the alternative way. But please believe me; I really want to play the right way, but sometimes when I played a level, I think it's not quite the intended way, allthough I want to. So how can I find what's the right way then?

From the level-makers perspective: If a levelmaker states that he/she would rather not have alternate solutions pointed out as "mistakes", then that should be respected, too.

And how can I ask for help to find that right way, without telling that I maybe solved it the wrong way?
I thought this discussionboard is meant to discuss levels though?

Post, download, and discuss custom levels for Return To Wonderland.

[peegman]

I agree with Patrick.Solving a level the way it wasn't intented to be just means that you're pretty good to find it.

[jcvalcar2]

Maybe you are making more out of this than you need to....the main object for you is to have a good time.

I don’t believe there is a right or wrong way to solve the levels. A loophole doesn’t mean that a mistake was made. It simply means that you were able to solve a level differently. How boring would the game be if we all thought alike but because we don’t, people solve levels in their own way and because we all don’t think alike there are thousands of levels posted on the forum for everyone to enjoy.

If something is missed (i.e. a button, exit gate etc.) that is a mistake, so the level maker can correct it, and repost the level. I don’t think people are “perfect” so mistakes will be made, so what – move on. The level will get corrected and people can continue playing the game. You’re forgetting that this is just a game, the intent is to provide enjoyment for all. We need to encourage the level makers so they continue to make levels for all of us to enjoy not discourage them to the point that they stop!

Once again, we all don’t think alike so there are going to be different ways to solve levels but it doesn’t mean that there is a "wrong way" just "not the intended way".

Chill out honey, enjoy the game for what it is.. a game to enjoy

[Marinus]

Thanks for giving your opinion Cathy, and I totally agree with that.

The reason that I used the words "right"/"wrong" way, is that I have the idea that some people think that way. Of course it's just the intended way or an alternative way. And allthough I find alternative solutions interesting, I always want to know the intended solution.

To me, it's because, when I make the level, I have an idea. So, when I make the level, I make it for that idea. When someone finds an unintended solution, I feel like the level isn't 'right', because the player didn't see the idea that I was showing. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense to me! I like to know what idea the levelmaker had, making the level.

[mette]

If (when?) I ever get around to creating a level again, I'll welcome comments from everybody. I especially like hearing how people solves my levels since I otherwise have no way of knowing. I think knowing helps me to make better levels. Maybe I'll be a bit annoyed when someone finds an alternative solution, but I'll be annoyed at myself, not at the poster of the solution. And I'll be happy to tell my intended way if anyone asks for it.

@Marinus: I think I sort of understand what you're saying. Me being a perfectionist I like my levels to be solved in 'my way' only and I like to solve other levels in the intended way too. But often things don't work out that way, and I have learned to let it go. As I understand your type of autism - that's excactly what's extra difficult for you. Am I on the right track?
And last but not least: I think you're very brave to speak openly about your 'being different' - cudos to you

Best,
Mette

[Marinus]

Thanks Mette, we were posting exactly the same time.

I think if I would make a level, I also wanted it to be only with one solution. And if there was a different solution I would think, too bad, but I definitely wanted to know.

As I understand your type of autism - that's excactly what's extra difficult for you. Am I on the right track?

Yes. I like things to be clear. If there is a problem or something is not clear, I like to talk as long as it takes until everything is perfectly clear. But most people are not that way, they get tired of it then

And that's the same with about speaking openly (Thanks ) I think speaking/explaining openly is the best way to let people understand each other.

[slimm tom]

But what if the level author made several intended solutions for a level, so there are choices people can make? Then there's no 'right' solution, but several of them.

[mqdar]

But what if the level author made several intended solutions for a level, so there are choices people can make? Then there's no 'right' solution, but several of them.

Then everyone can have their own way!

Just a thought about the topic title:
Is different wrong? No, different is different!

[Dizzy1]

But what if the level author made several intended solutions for a level, so there are choices people can make? Then there's no 'right' solution, but several of them.

Finally! Someone understands what I've said! Thank you Slimm Tom!

This is what I have been saying all along! There is not necessarily one intended way of doing my levels. So why would someone keep demanding I tell the 'intended way'

[Marinus]

Good! If there is no intended way, there can't be loopholes either.

[Dizzy1]

Correct! So there is NO NEED to ask for the 'intended way' OR tell someone about a loophole. Unless they want you to. (and I don't...I just want people to play and have fun....who gives a crap how you do it)

[Marinus]

I still don't know what crime I've committed.

[Dizzy1]

Sorry, your innocent act doesn't work with me.

EDIT: And I am finished with this ridiculous thread.

Ciao!