Generic Wonderland Facts and Findings Topic

Discuss the games (no level solutions or off-topic, please).

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Generic Wonderland Facts and Findings Topic

Post by Wonderman109 » Fri May 23, 2014 12:03 pm

I thought that we might need such a topi for things that we don't know where to put on the forums.

Two new facts I found:

A. In WA, you can collect two indigo shards. if you speed-rush talking to Morklin in the museum while staying near the shard, you can get the unstolen one before the thwart. Or, you can block the thwart's way and mess up the chase. It's possible to get through those right gates this way, but I haven't tried.

B. In MoFI, it seems that PermaBrr from ice trolls is much faster-flying than the spells of iceflowers or the player. I haven't tested this in the editor.
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Post by Wonderland King » Fri May 23, 2014 2:17 pm

I guess this belongs here, then: :wink:

In two POTZ levels, you can use Q-Spell to steal a red key. Those levels are
Dark Waters and Rescue Mission B.
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Post by Wonderman109 » Fri May 23, 2014 8:14 pm

Wonderland King wrote:I guess this belongs here, then: :wink:

In two POTZ levels, you can use Q-Spell to steal a red key. Those levels are
Dark Waters and Rescue Mission B.
If it hadn't been announced, I never would've considered Q-Spell a glitch. I've seen it used in WAE1 adventures before, and I've used it before.
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Post by Jutomi » Fri May 23, 2014 8:22 pm

Well, I personally don't find, as it's called, "Q-spelling" past the edge of a wall a glitch.

I do, however, find "Q-spelling" through the centre of a wall to the other side kind of cheaty. :P
Your only little stinker that's absolutely NOT a z-bot by this name,
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Also, if you want to see my level list, here it is! :D
(Also: List of Hubs, WA Manual)
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Post by Koopson44 » Fri May 23, 2014 8:26 pm

What is the q spell?
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Post by Jutomi » Fri May 23, 2014 8:29 pm

It's some kind of thing that involves blinking past walls.

Here are two pictures of what I mean.

P.S. Why does the second, larger, more detailed picture have a smaller file size than the first picture? :?
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Wa_Wedged.PNG
Here is an instance of a spell going right through two walls - no walls beyond said walls.
Wa_Wedged.PNG (173.65 KiB) Viewed 20492 times
Wa_Edged.PNG
Here is the first, and less cheaty, version - at which case, you use magic to pass very sharp corners on walls.
Wa_Edged.PNG (223.39 KiB) Viewed 20492 times
Your only little stinker that's absolutely NOT a z-bot by this name,
Jutomi~ :mrgreen:

Also, if you want to see my level list, here it is! :D
(Also: List of Hubs, WA Manual)
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Post by tyteen4a03 » Fri May 23, 2014 9:08 pm

Spoiler wrote:You have discovered Q-Spell.
and the duck went moo

Beep bloop
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Post by Muzozavr » Sun May 25, 2014 10:26 am

In WA, you can collect two indigo shards.
Oh god. Oh god oh god oh god oh god. What happens then? Do the shards even function correctly at this point.
In two POTZ levels, you can use Q-Spell to steal a red key.
Since you have to wake up the stinkers in Rescue Mission B, stealing the red keycard seems kind of pointless... unless you add some other trick to it.

But Dark Waters? How? I swear I tried Q-blinking behind the star from all kinds of angles... does this mean you can take the key, then exit the level and get another key outside? Two keys for one level? Seems like a great trick for would-be speedrunners.
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Post by Wonderland King » Sun May 25, 2014 3:06 pm

Muzozavr wrote:Since you have to wake up the stinkers in Rescue Mission B, stealing the red keycard seems kind of pointless... unless you add some other trick to it.
What do you mean?
Muzozavr wrote:But Dark Waters? How? I swear I tried Q-blinking behind the star from all kinds of angles... does this mean you can take the key, then exit the level and get another key outside? Two keys for one level? Seems like a great trick for would-be speedrunners.
After you get Blink, use Q-Spell to Blink back down into the area with the ice wraith. Then Blink to the spot left of the star, and blink one space northwest or northeast. Collect the red key and then the star.
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Post by Jutomi » Sun May 25, 2014 4:06 pm

tyteen4a03 wrote:
Spoiler wrote:You have discovered Q-Spell.
:lol:
Your only little stinker that's absolutely NOT a z-bot by this name,
Jutomi~ :mrgreen:

Also, if you want to see my level list, here it is! :D
(Also: List of Hubs, WA Manual)
Oh, and my YT wonderland channel. Forgot about that.
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Post by Wonderman109 » Mon May 26, 2014 12:08 am

Muzozavr wrote:
In WA, you can collect two indigo shards.
Oh god. Oh god oh god oh god oh god. What happens then? Do the shards even function correctly at this point.
Just as normal, except that the teleportation naturally involves one more shard. Both indigo shards go to Morklin. And, for all I know, it may well be possible to 'outrun' the game with the blue shard, red shard, and any other shard in which more than one actually exist in-game. However, I have my actual Wonderland games deleted now, so I can't run a test. But, I've done these and worse things to the game before when re-playing it just for fun. In fact, I'll write some of the ways to get trapped in the topic for that.
Last edited by Wonderman109 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Wonderman109 » Tue May 27, 2014 8:39 pm

DP
Jutomi's Second Picture wrote: Here is an instance of a spell going right through two walls - no walls beyond said walls.
I didn't know about THAT before. THAT should not be used in levels by any means. :lol:
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Post by samuelthx » Wed May 28, 2014 3:28 pm

Wonderman109 wrote:DP
Jutomi's Second Picture wrote: Here is an instance of a spell going right through two walls - no walls beyond said walls.
I didn't know about THAT before. THAT should not be used in levels by any means. :lol:
Wait what. Didn't you utilise this in Terrorble Temple? :shock:
Here's my solution to one of the puzzles in Terrorble Temple. When you said Q-Spell I automatically assumed you meant this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_lp0nD-cI

To the others who have no idea what Q-Spell is, here's your answer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_lp0nD-cI#t=2m3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_lp0nD-cI#t=3m33s
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Post by Qloof234 » Wed May 28, 2014 3:39 pm

To clarify (while I still feel kinda odd about it being named after me), the basic "Q-Spell" is the ability to fire a spellball through a wall at a relatively slight angle, wherein it only travels through one tile. Spells can't clip through a barrier that's more than one tile "thick".

I think what Jutomi means by his description is that it looks as if the spell is clipping through the edge of the "upper" wall as well. It's the more "blatant" occurrence of the bug, as opposed to "cornering" (as some Pac-Man players might call it).
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Post by samuelthx » Wed May 28, 2014 3:47 pm

Qloof234 wrote:To clarify (while I still feel kinda odd about it being named after me), the basic "Q-Spell" is the ability to fire a spellball through a wall at a relatively slight angle, wherein it only travels through one tile. Spells can't clip through a barrier that's more than one tile "thick".

I think what Jutomi means by his description is that it looks as if the spell is clipping through the edge of the "upper" wall as well. It's the more "blatant" occurrence of the bug, as opposed to "cornering" (as some Pac-Man players might call it).
From what I gathered from the description, Jutomi seems to be saying that the spell ball passes through the 2 walls. I'm not sure though.
EDIT: It's most likely me misinterpreting Jutomi's statement, since the scenario which I'd described doesn't seem to work.
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Post by Jutomi » Wed May 28, 2014 6:28 pm

Oh!

Well, with the two instances...

Say picture one is .:, the . being the player, and the : being the walls.

I am not sure how it works if you go past the wall under the : - it probably works with walls beyond it in some cases(Like, .:: being player walls walls), but other times, the spellball will end up hitting the second set of walls(:).

In the second picture, you can send spells between two adjacent, but only if they're one block thick;

In other words, in .:, you can send a spellball flying through the two if done right.
However, with .::, you can't send a sellball through the wall - even if there's only one dot in place of green.

I hope that clarifies my way of thinking, and doesn't make it even more baffling. :lol:

P.S. I had to do a lot of copy/pastework for the .:: thing. :P
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Post by Wonderman109 » Wed May 28, 2014 8:24 pm

samuelthx's solution is far from intended. All the magic in the area was meant to be used, to start. He used the four-set of Brrs for a completely unintentional purpose. There is never a need to time the Flash with the gates, since you could just step on a diamond button and open them permanently by the same concept. The Floing at the bottom was for the Floing-Brr glitch. And you broke the rest of the puzzle at the bottom half too by using that same trick. Part of your solution is my lack of attention to detail, but you had no need to use WQ-spell. Or even Q-Spell for that matter.

I'll post my full intended solution in the proper topic later.

EDIT: Click here.
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Post by samuelthx » Thu May 29, 2014 10:42 am

Wonderman109 wrote:samuelthx's solution is far from intended. All the magic in the area was meant to be used, to start. He used the four-set of Brrs for a completely unintentional purpose. There is never a need to time the Flash with the gates, since you could just step on a diamond button and open them permanently by the same concept. The Floing at the bottom was for the Floing-Brr glitch. And you broke the rest of the puzzle at the bottom half too by using that same trick. Part of your solution is my lack of attention to detail, but you had no need to use WQ-spell. Or even Q-Spell for that matter.

I'll post my full intended solution in the proper topic later.
Yikes. When you said in the adventure topic that the level required Q-Spell, I had no idea that you didn't know the full extent of Q-Spell. Ah well. Will try again if I have the time.
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Post by Wonderman109 » Fri May 30, 2014 10:26 pm

Also, by using the move-spell glitch in the ice-wall-blink area, the area with the spring and rotators can grant you an extra purple key. :P
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Post by Wonderman109 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:56 pm

I figured out the reason behind Q-spell. It's just a variant of the wall-blinking glitch that was in the original WA, and can be re-activated with Ctrl-B. MS fixed the straight-angle wall-blink, but not the angled ones. That is how we have Q-spell, and why it only works for short distances with walls more than one unit thick.
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Post by billy bob » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:16 am

Muzozavr wrote:
Wonderman109 wrote:In WA, you can collect two indigo shards.
Oh god. Oh god oh god oh god oh god. What happens then? Do the shards even function correctly at this point.
You can get two indigo shards and you can get two blue shards. The shards act as individual shards but still take the player to the same location.

What is interesting is, when you complete either of the adventures "The Red Shard" or "Thwart the Thwarts", the game reads how many shards you have, and if you have exactly three shards after "Thwart the Thwarts" or four shards after "The Red Shard" then Wysp will appear in the area and at the museum Morklin will have the dialogue that gives the player the key to Temple Ruins (note that you collect the red shard before you complete "The Red Shard" and you collect the blue shard after you complete "Thwart the Thwarts"). However, of course if you collect two indigo shards or blue shards or avoid collecting any indigo shard or red shard or blue shard (all possible) then you can abuse this mechanism. In fact, if you get two indigo shards then complete "The Red Shard" then the mechanism will be triggered and you will be able to beat the game (any%) without even going to The Foggy Mountains.
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Post by Sammy_P » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:14 am

billy bob wrote:
Muzozavr wrote:
Wonderman109 wrote:In WA, you can collect two indigo shards.
Oh god. Oh god oh god oh god oh god. What happens then? Do the shards even function correctly at this point.
You can get two indigo shards and you can get two blue shards. The shards act as individual shards but still take the player to the same location.

What is interesting is, when you complete either of the adventures "The Red Shard" or "Thwart the Thwarts", the game reads how many shards you have, and if you have exactly three shards after "Thwart the Thwarts" or four shards after "The Red Shard" then Wysp will appear in the area and at the museum Morklin will have the dialogue that gives the player the key to Temple Ruins (note that you collect the red shard before you complete "The Red Shard" and you collect the blue shard after you complete "Thwart the Thwarts"). However, of course if you collect two indigo shards or blue shards or avoid collecting any indigo shard or red shard or blue shard (all possible) then you can abuse this mechanism. In fact, if you get two indigo shards then complete "The Red Shard" then the mechanism will be triggered and you will be able to beat the game (any%) without even going to The Foggy Mountains.
What. i dont even

thats amazing
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Post by Wonderland King » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:45 pm

billy bob wrote:
Muzozavr wrote:
Wonderman109 wrote:In WA, you can collect two indigo shards.
Oh god. Oh god oh god oh god oh god. What happens then? Do the shards even function correctly at this point.
You can get two indigo shards and you can get two blue shards. The shards act as individual shards but still take the player to the same location.

What is interesting is, when you complete either of the adventures "The Red Shard" or "Thwart the Thwarts", the game reads how many shards you have, and if you have exactly three shards after "Thwart the Thwarts" or four shards after "The Red Shard" then Wysp will appear in the area and at the museum Morklin will have the dialogue that gives the player the key to Temple Ruins (note that you collect the red shard before you complete "The Red Shard" and you collect the blue shard after you complete "Thwart the Thwarts"). However, of course if you collect two indigo shards or blue shards or avoid collecting any indigo shard or red shard or blue shard (all possible) then you can abuse this mechanism. In fact, if you get two indigo shards then complete "The Red Shard" then the mechanism will be triggered and you will be able to beat the game (any%) without even going to The Foggy Mountains.
So that's why Wysp never appeared in the Mushroom Grove. I had assumed it was a normal editor mechanism and never collected the blue shard. :roll: :lol:
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Post by Qloof234 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:45 am

So hey, this might not exactly belong here, but something curious in WA1.

As some of you already know, the hub in WA1 has a handful of unused rooms. There's 27.wlv, the "park" area, and two different early versions of Jaana's tree nursery. One of which is quite, um... Interesting, because there are four giant turtles in it (and two giant FireFlowers).

Removing them in the editor and running it in the player looks like this:

Image

Anyways, after a bit of a chat on Skype about stuff like this, I started poking around in the hub folder and found something else that struck me as very weird - a level file called 17b.wlv, last modified in October 2006 - In contrast, all the "final" levels in the game were last modified in at least January 2007. Cbloopy's WA1-to-Editor converter wouldn't even recognize it as a valid level file.

The giant-turtle version of Jaana's nursery is both later than 17b, and works fine with the converter - The nursery (100.wlv) was last modified at the start of November 2006, making 17b the oldest level in the game's files.

Needless to say, this piqued my curiosity. A lot. After a bit of messing about trying to figure out what the deal was, I renamed the file to 33.wlv and used the Vault to try loading it in WA1.

The results were... Interesting. Much like 100.wlv, it has giant turtles (both of which are in the water at the start of the video), and the background "walls" are completely missing. In my opinion, though, the most curious thing about this - It highlights how files were shifted around for the final game.

All 3 of the signs in 17b actually point to valid dialogue files, but they're clearly not pointing to the right ones. For that matter, both of the level-exit arrows in the level point to valid levels (and the correct ones, at that!), but with incorrect co-ordinates.

Despite that, the adventure stars (at least the two that I tried) crash the game. Still, an interesting peek at how WA1's development unfolded.
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Post by Jutomi » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:01 am

That is really bizarre. :o
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Also, if you want to see my level list, here it is! :D
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Post by llarson » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:09 am

Whoa! :shock:

That's an interesting find! :D

Also the unused .wlv looked like it might've belonged to the temple area (I forget what it was called however)

I enjoy seeing original concepts for videogames...they're interesting.

What did the park area look like by chance? Just out of curiosity.
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Post by Qloof234 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:30 am

Yeah, it's definitely an earlier version of the outer Rainbow Pool temple area. Layout aside, a few things that could be used to argue that point:
  • The final Temple Exterior is 17.wlv, while this is 17b
    The layout is nearly identical - This can be seen in the image where I copied the tile layout over without copying the objects (this one), yet only a few objects were in places that didn't make sense, ie. inside walls
    The level exits in 17b match up with two of the level-exits in 17, albeit with different co-ordinates (that is to say, they exit to the same level)
    While the position of it is wrong, one of the signs points to the same "teleporter info" dialogue file that's used in the final version of the Temple (Additionally, the numbers of the two oddball dialogue files - Looleen's and Booleen's - are right next to the teleporter info file)
As for the "park" area, I don't have a better picture on-hand, but there's an older image of it on this page of The Midnight Post.
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Post by Qloof234 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:39 am

Skype Logs wrote:[10:57:49 PM] Thunder Dash: whoa whoa wait what

something... hang on a moment
[11:00:21 PM] Thunder Dash: there... are three or four entries in 17b... that i can't make heads or tails out of

the model is "!Shadow", there's no !texture entry, and... what the hell
[11:01:30 PM] sammyp: OH???
[11:01:34 PM] sammyp: that sounds neat
[11:02:04 PM] Thunder Dash: logic type is 101, which... is apparently the shadow object, that tells me a whole lot of nothing gg
[11:02:32 PM] sammyp: hm
[11:03:45 PM] Thunder Dash: this is very strange
[11:04:31 PM] Thunder Dash: it just mav's the editor if i turn it into a .wop, yay
[11:04:46 PM] Thunder Dash: aaand afaict none of the other levels in wa1 have this thing in them

[11:13:50 PM] Thunder Dash: wait a minute

... i think this shadow object is what's confusing cbloopy's converter
[11:13:58 PM] Thunder Dash: hang on, going to try something else and see what happens

[11:14:41 PM] *** Group call, no answer. ***
[11:14:47 PM] Thunder Dash: whoa whoa skype wut u doin
[11:15:04 PM] Thunder Dash: okay idk what that was all about, skype seems to have thought i wanted to call
[11:15:52 PM] gameboy991: pffff
[11:16:06 PM] Thunder Dash: anyways what i was trying to say before skype decided to troll everyone is that it looks as though, in the version of the game that 17b is from, the player had to be placed in the level directly

just speculation, but there's a !Hat object in here too, which is part of the player

[11:20:46 PM] Thunder Dash: wow, yeah, 17b must be from a much older version of the game than what we've got now

there's a !Player object in here, with an interesting texture name

"!T003c001F0"

^ not making that up btw
[11:22:38 PM] Thunder Dash: ... or maybe that's not the case (As in, maybe it's not from an older version of the game)
[11:23:15 PM] Tet: you should find out what's at 0x03c001F0 in the game's memory if it actually is the case
[11:23:32 PM] Yuval α: Texture 003 color 001 something?
[11:23:58 PM] Thunder Dash: ^ that's kinda what i thought, but i'm not sure

i have a guess at what it [the player object] might be, but i could be (read: probably am) completely wrong

[11:26:49 PM] Thunder Dash: i was right after all, i'm amazed

the player object, the hat, the shadows

they're all in there because 17b is from a saved game

[11:28:47 PM] Thunder Dash: I opened up WA1 to load up one of my own save files, where I was in Wondertown, then used the vault to verify the .wlv number (23)

I went into the Player data folder, found the save slot, and opened 23.wlv in a hex editor

lo and behold... there are at least three !Shadow entries (I'm assuming from NPCs and such), a !Player entry (mine had !T002c001B0), and a !Hat entry
[11:28:54 PM] Thunder Dash: just like 17b.wlv
(Thunder Dash is me, by the way)

So maybe all this roundabout nonsense I've been doing up until now is actually useless after all, and all that needs to be done is for the extraneous data to be removed. Maybe that'll make Cbloopy's converter pick it up...? I'm not sure, looking into this now.

Bonus:
Skype Logs wrote:[11:32:50 PM] Tet: so wait does that mean that a savegame saves the entire level
[11:33:02 PM] Tet: because that sounds horrendously inefficient
[11:34:17 PM] Thunder Dash: you might not want to check in the save folders then

i think you might have a heart attack
[11:34:38 PM] Tet: oh god
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Post by Qloof234 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:07 am

Okay, so I can't figure out how to actually remove the data that's confusing Cbloopy's converter. Just cutting out all the Shadows and the Player stuff doesn't help, so for now, I've dropped that approach.

Instead, I mucked about with the Turtle data in the level to see what might happen. I intended to just shrink them down to normal size, but whatever settings I changed made them explode the moment the level loaded... :? :lol: :shock:

Right now, I'm too lazy to look into making the level load in the Editor, but I think I'll be able to at least re-create its object layout to some extent. Stay tuned 8)

QUICKEDIT: Oh yeah, also found something else of interest while poking about. Though it's not as well-known as the unused "park" (room 27), there's also what looks like an older version of the Wondertown Museum. The layout is mostly the same, except A) the proto version (as I'm calling it - room 300, to be specific, is the older one) doesn't have the objects in it for events post-Indigo Shard, and B) the bridge puzzle in the proto is slightly different - I figure the reason it's changed between this old version and the final is because it's possible to get stuck in the old version (there are no "safety" springs). There are a few other minor differences, too.

Now, here's the thing: Despite the fact that the room is normally unused, when you beat the game, one of the level-swaps that happens (i.e. the broken bridge area swaps to a version of the level with no void-drain and a fixed bridge) is from the "regular" Museum to the "prototype" version.

As far as I can tell, all the objects and such from the regular Museum are copied over into the prototype one as well. Some of them are, at least - There's no Wysp NPC in the prototype version, despite his presence in the museum post-game.
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Post by Qloof234 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:47 pm

Triple-post, but, uh. Strange things.

As far as I can tell, 17b.wlv isn't actually from a saved game - When I went to check the file again in XVI32, it appeared more or less the same as the rest of the levels in-game (no Shadows or Players or whatever).

Somehow, I guess I must've gotten 17b from one of the save-file folders, but... I'm certain I got it from the root folder. Whatever the cause, I managed to get it to actually load in the Editor properly, objects included (and giant turtles removed).

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That was an adventure. :roll: :P
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