Issue #4 Feedback

Discussion related to the Midnight Synergy newsletter.
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Issue #4 Feedback

Post by Midnight Synergy » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:34 am

Issue #4 will be on its way to your mailbox a little later, but you can already read it online.

http://www.midnightsynergy.com/newsletter/issue004

You can subscribe and un-subscribe right here:
http://www.midnightsynergy.com/newsletter

Enjoy - and let us know what you thought of this issue.
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Post by Midnight Synergy » Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:49 am

... and as a bonus for forum members a little more on the new Wonderland.

Last bit we worked on was the "seamless and persistent" world aspect of the new game. As you will be able to explore Wonderland at your own leisure, it was important to program a system that would allow parts of the world to change according to your actions, and then remain changed - even if you wander off and come back later. A little side-effect of that was that a save-function for the game was relatively easy to implement. If things go according to plan, you'll be able to save anytime, anywhere.

Next up on the agenda is the story/dialogue system - this is where the "adventure" elements of the new Wonderland will come into play. I've been doing a lot of reading on interactive storytelling, such as books by eminent (and eccentric) game designer Chris Crawford (link) and screenwriter Lee Sheldon (link). The goal I hope for is a system that will allow you to shape much of the story by conversing with other Wonderland characters. Keeping with the persistent world approach, something you do might affect how a character feels about you, or how willing they might be to help you with another problem. I now have a ton of possibilities in my notebook, the real challenge will be to cut these down to a system that is manageable to write and maintain, gives the player the flexibility to proceed through the story along their own path/speed/etc, and - most importantly - is fun!

Lots to do!
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Post by amy25 » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:08 am

That just whetted my thirst for the new game! Looks good Patrick! :D :D :D
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Post by drushing » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:42 am

Great newsletter, Patrick! Very interesting articles to read. Will definitely check out the free games as well as the other links! I took a look at the Gears level and it sure looks like a tough challenge. Will give it a go though. Last but not least, very cool idea to be able to create your own stinker player!!
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Post by popo » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:02 am

I really like the way the new game is coming along, can't wait for Christmas. :D

I had a look at the link for Grand Illusions. Printed myself the template for the dragon model to stand on my desk. :D On one of the pages there's a Russian puzzle. I've been trying to do this puzzle for ages now, has anyone else been able to do it yet? http://www.grand-illusions.com/articles/russian_puzzle/ I've even printed it out on card so I can keep having a go at it during the day. Sad or what? :?: :roll: :oops: :lol:

I've been playing that free adventure game too. Really strange but unnervingly compelling. I got stuck on level 4 so I'll have to start again. At this rate I'll still be in my jimjams at tea time!! :shock: :oops: :lol: :lol:
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Post by TheoX » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:24 am

Ah, the new Wonderland looks as if it's going great! :D
"Chip's Challenge" looks cool, and did anyone notice the
chomper look-alike on the picture of it?
Is that the origin of the chomper?
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Post by mette » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:44 pm

popo wrote: On one of the pages there's a Russian puzzle. I've been trying to do this puzzle for ages now, has anyone else been able to do it yet?
Yep :P :P :P :lol: I did. Do you want the solution Poops? :P :lol: :lol:
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Post by popo » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:50 pm

Yes please Mette, it's driving me bonkers. :roll: :cry: :evil: :oops: :oops:
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Post by mette » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:59 pm

PM on it's way :D
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Post by Loirae » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:40 pm

popo wrote:I've been playing that free adventure game too. Really strange but unnervingly compelling. I got stuck on level 4 so I'll have to start again. At this rate I'll still be in my jimjams at tea time!! :shock: :oops: :lol: :lol:
You mean the point n click game with the spaceship guy? That was a fun one. Like a mini-myst. :lol:
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Post by TheoX » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:50 pm

Has anyone tried the "gears" Wonderland level that was on this issue?
It's murder! :shock: :shock:
I still haven't finished it!
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Post by amy25 » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:23 am

I looked it last night and I kept dying everytime I moved so I stopped trying! I would have killed myself in order to get the coin!
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Post by Loirae » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:27 am

I got almost all the way to the coin in GEARS. I was about 4 steps away when I bought the farm for the 30th time. Have to try again.
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Post by Robbie » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:32 am

Looks great Pat!

Even at this early stage there's some visually stunning stuff.
Teleporter
- the new teleporter looks amazing. Would be nice to factor in the ability to increase or decrease the effect - I'm presuming this is animated so might not be easy. The idea being that you could attach greater or lesser importance to a teleporter - maybe a general teleporter could be smallish, then you could set a really important teleporter to really large - or even angling out (like an inverse cone shape?) Conversely, you could remove the effect all together if you wanted to hide the teleporter to some degree. Might be hard to hide if there's this big thing flashing up out of the ground... :wink: Just another thought came to mind - any plans for an optional sound effect? (are those little white bits near the base of the teleporters sparkly effects?... nice!) I'd sort of visualise a comination wind sound/windchime effect - maybe there could be the option of altering the volume of the effect or turning it off - if someone has a hidden teleported they might want to suggest it's presence by having a faint effect you know as if to say 'there's a teleporter hidden here, come & find it'...


Firetrap
- the firetrap's also a feature you obviously taken time in perfecting - looks great. How easy would it be to make one horizontal? Instead of having it shoot up, have one placed on a wall. Depending on how you set it up in the editor, you might have it as a floating circular panel (it looks circular on the base) in which case a really keen creator might put a dragon model (for example - or another statue) up to the firetrap & make it look like a fire breathing statue trap!

Water/Lavafalls
- I like the water coming out of the grate as well - is this an open grate model with a custom water feature??? Would be cool (can I say that at 35? :wink: ) if it was or is to be. Being able to make water falls whether large one you can walk through (?) or small like this - again with the model idea, have a statue or some sort overlooking a body of water and set a water feature to look like water coming out of its mouth - for anyone that has seen it, remember in Spirited Away when the lake appeared & there was a frog statue on/near the steps & water was coming out of its mouth? Maybe Pat if you had this worked out it wouldn't be a big step (speaking as someone with no programming skills :roll: ) to do the same thing with lava.

Editor
- on the editor issue, again I'm presuming that you have base models for every facet of the game. I know a number of programs have a simple screen with all the basic elements 'as they are', then give a drop down section for all the tweeks. It might be something to consider. Have everything available as simple as possible for the newby so that it's not overwhelming, relatively straightforward - and when they're ready or at least a bit curious, they can open up the 'extra tweek' options where they can fully customise.

Custom Stinkers
- nice job on the Loof model! Very clean. Be interesting to see what options are available for Stinker customisation... hat obviously, skin shoe & glove colours... not a whole lot of room for clothing :oops: - maybe the ability to alter the size? Scale the model in & out (obviously place limits) so you can have David & Goliath stinkers...

Robbie :D (sorry, couldn't help myself... been good lately... oh well)
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Post by TheoX » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:44 am

I agree with everything Robbie said!
Especially the editor - that it shouldn't go into the range of needing programming skills :wink:
I can't wait for the new Wonderland, but I suppose it will be a while.
Will it be free? :twisted: :roll: :wink: :lol:
I'm guessing it won't, but I'll hope for the unlikely :lol:
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Post by Robbie » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:01 am

'Unlikely' being the operative word Theo... you know you shouldn't mention 'free' until after he's finished - needs some incentive to keep going & why not the thought there's lots of money to be made (& of course our happiness :wink: )

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Post by Midnight Synergy » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:10 am

Glad you liked the newsletter - keep the comments coming, they help me figure out what you would and wouldn't like to read about in future issues.

Some random answers:

- As its a completely new game it won't be free. But I guess you kinda new that already. 8)

- Teleporters: right now you can pick your own textures to make them look differently - single coloured teleporters might be the standard ones, and the rainbow textured ones could be "important" ones, for example. I also have a neat effect for an "unstable" teleporter (it wobbles and twists as it rotates) - although I'm not sure yet how/if it will work in the actual game.

- Horizontal Fire: technically. at least, no problem.

- Water and other textures: the bit of water draining out of the pipe is not animated, but it still looks good. Level designers can provide any texture in the level (not just a predefined set as in RTWP) so one could completely customize the look.

- Editor complexity: just given the # of options (and the 3D look) it will definitely be harder to use than the RTWP editor, there won't be a way around that (unfortunately). The question I will tackle later is how not to make it too hard, but keep the complexity. Example: buttons in RTWP have only one function - opening gates. Buttons in the new Wonderland can do anything you want: open gates, activate teleporters, create items, etc. So right now you place a button and then set the button's command parameters, e.g. "activate object with ID #X". That takes some more care, because you then give e.g. a door and a teleporter that ID #X. Now stepping on the button both activates the door and turns on the teleporter with that matching ID. It's not exactly "programming skills", but it does require a bit more planning than the almost experimental approach you can take in RTWP level editing.

- Samorost: it's neat, isn't it? There's also a sequel which is equally weird and wonderful, but only the first half of the game is free.

- Gears: yep, it's tough! Try it with the timer off, first. To do it with the timer on you almost have to "go Zen-like" to get the consistent rythm. Any chipsters still around?


I also have a design question I'd just like to throw out and see what resonates with the group. I'm dealing with characters/conversations right now, as mentioned. I'd be interested in hearing any particular characters, or ways to converse with characters, that you've really enjoyed in past games (most adventure, I guess, but no limited to that), and why.
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Post by paulm12 » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:18 am

Like a 4 player party mode?

Sounds Neat!
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Post by Midnight Synergy » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:21 am

paulm12 wrote:Like a 4 player party mode?

Sounds Neat!
Actually more like interaction with non-human (computer controlled) characters, not multiplayer.
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Post by Loirae » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:19 am

I like being able to read the text on screen, but you might need audio for people who can't read or little kids. What I don't like though is having to sit through all the conversation when I have to replay a level. So, having a "skip" or "fast forward" option would be helpful.

I am a fan of "kingdom hearts" and for some important scenes and cut scenes, it's text w/audio (movie-ish) that you have to sit through (wish I could forward though). For other times when you are walking up to a NPC and choose talk, it's a text box that comes up. And if you read fast, or already know what's there, just hit the cancel button and it moves you through the dialog at a pretty good clip.

Also, any time the conversation is going to end in a battle or in WL's case an activity, there should be an option to cancel or change your mind.
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Post by Midnight Synergy » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:20 pm

Just a quick note on Chip's Challenge - since it never was made freeware, please don't post any links of the game that you might find on the internet on this forum. Those would be pirated/warez versions, and hence illegal. Thanks for your understanding.
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Post by Loirae » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:34 pm

We made the hollow dragon last night and my son has decided it's his new best friend. He carries him everywhere and talks to him and the conversation usually ends with "Why are you always looking at me????"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by paulm12 » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:55 pm

Midnight Synergy wrote:
paulm12 wrote:Like a 4 player party mode?

Sounds Neat!
Actually more like interaction with non-human (computer controlled) characters, not multiplayer.
Well, anything by Patrick is EXCELLENT don't you think!?
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I don't know if this is where to put it, but...

Post by Hekate » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:21 pm

I remember someone saying something about a way to "fight" with the monsters, but I personally prefer the puzzle-like monsters that you must outwit or outrun. So, I'm not sure if I like that idea.

Just putting my 2¢ in!!
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Post by Loirae » Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:48 am

I can't remember if this has been mentioned, but are you hoping to get this out in 2006? Or are we looking WAY into the future?
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Post by wonderland01 » Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:05 pm

Do not make the Level Editor too difficult. All the new ideas that make into the game would be fine, but do not make too many custmazatton stuff, because soon, all the levels on the whole forum will be advanced, and belive me, I have trouble downloading advanced stuff. :wink:
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Post by Robbie » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:20 am

Pat Wrote
Next up on the agenda is the story/dialogue system - this is where the "adventure" elements of the new Wonderland will come into play. I've been doing a lot of reading on interactive storytelling, such as books by eminent (and eccentric) game designer Chris Crawford (link) and screenwriter Lee Sheldon (link). The goal I hope for is a system that will allow you to shape much of the story by conversing with other Wonderland characters. Keeping with the persistent world approach, something you do might affect how a character feels about you, or how willing they might be to help you with another problem. I now have a ton of possibilities in my notebook, the real challenge will be to cut these down to a system that is manageable to write and maintain, gives the player the flexibility to proceed through the story along their own path/speed/etc, and - most importantly - is fun!


I also have a design question I'd just like to throw out and see what resonates with the group. I'm dealing with characters/conversations right now, as mentioned. I'd be interested in hearing any particular characters, or ways to converse with characters, that you've really enjoyed in past games (most adventure, I guess, but no limited to that), and why.



Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner Pat, working on my own business web site at the moment...

I haven't had a huge amount of gaming experience but I'll throw in my 2 bits worth... I know I know, hasn't stopped me in the past and for all the typing I hope there's something useful...

Dealing with emotions isn't something I've generally seen in computer games - how characters feel about you, their willingness to help almost sounds futuristic - actual intellegence. I guess in that respect for my experience it comes back to a character having something to give providing you have either done something, or given them something. There have been occassions in some of the older RPG games where you've been able to kill or at least wound characters who might have otherwise helped but generally there have been programming safeguards that prevent proverbally biting the hand that will hopefully feed you.


There's a number of different NPCs you might want to cater for simply to give variety & challenge.

- those that have no real bearing on the game & make general chit chat

- those that seem to have no real bearing on the game, who will not ask for something but require you bring something to them who will thereafter provide either/or an item, information or a quest. These can be very rewarding as you don't really know whether someone you are talking to is going to be important to you or not. It makes you sit up & take notice of everything.

- those that simply have information which will assist in progress in the game whether they say something that needs to be done or mentions a certain character that for example lost something (like the last type)

- those that have something/information you need but will (optionally) require you to either do something or give them something in return. I say optionally as you might meet a character after a say series of puzzles or a quest who will present you with something (be it item or information) without requiring you do any more. It may be in this category too a character will simply need you to do something for them without mentioning any reward or the like.


I guess how you present the art of conversation in game, will be somthing for you to decide in keeping with the rest of the game layout. Presentation wise I generally enjoy games that don't change to a totally new screen just for conversation but either bring up a new window within the game screen (maybe with an image of the characters talking) or a partially transparent screen with the words appearing on that - particularly when the character talking is brought clearly into (1st person) view. I've really enjoyed playing Zelda: Windwaker (when I can get to it) - it does this really well. It flows naturally & is enjoyable. I've always enjoyed the variety of conversation & relavence depending on the completion of certain things & seeing characters change in relation to things done - makes them seem more real & the games have a complete/satisfying feel to them.

There's times in game conversation where a character might be talking away, then ask if you'd like to know more about x different topics - you click on either the relavent topic or press a corresponding letter which brings up more information or a series of narration on you selection. I've found in some games when you get back to the previous screen (topic choices) the item you previously selected has disappeared - I've found it good to still have it there for people like me who have the collective memory of a very small school of goldfish. On the other hand having it go usually encourages me to make notes... In some games too after you've selected & read on a particular topic, more related topics become available which kind of encourages you to be thorough.

I like the vision of consistancy within the worlds you mentioned. With that of course comes the need to keep conversation relevant. Some games miss this point (certainly some of the older games) & characters will still be saying the same thing even though you've already done something...

As far as getting this down in game goes (and into the editor) will be another thing

I guess incorporating some sort of flowchart


A: Has event x taken place (this would be I guess major points of a level)
B: Has a task for this character been completed?
C: Has a task been set for this character?

D: Opening introduction
E: Chat
F: Information/things to ask about

G: Is there any task to give? (chat/info only - goto ending)
H: Is there something to give without completing a task
I: Set task either to do something or bring something back
J: Will you do it? (Yes/No)
K: Good Luck/Hurry conversation

L: Did they want something doing? (Yes - goto to /No - go to )
M: Conversation dependant on a character having brought something

N: Ability to hand something to someone
O: Do you want to give something?
P: Is it what they want? (Yes - goto to /No - go to )
Q: Decline offer conversation - go to
R: Accept offer conversation - go to

S: New information
T: Give reward item
U: Make something change within the level - maybe a door opens, passage clears etc

V: Thanks conversation

Z: Conversation when there is nothing else relevant for a character to say


Maybe in setting up these characters you could give the option of creating one of the 4 character types & simplifying the creation process by creating 'forms' to fill out rather then complex processes...

I know it sounds complex & that kind of bothers a lot of people but at the same time I think it lends itself to greater diversity & potential. I guess the challenge really is to open up the possibilities while at the same time creating an editor which is user friendly for the most basic of levels...

All I can say is good luck Pat!

Robbie :D

PS Oh something Loirae touched on too. Definitely the ability to cancel a conversation at any time/speed through a conversation is a big plus in my experience. Sometimes you might need to talk to a character again but you don't want have an ad break while it comes up on screen, or have to wade through an entire characters dialogue if you don't need to hear any more...

PPS Samorost... talk about a surreal experience
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Post by loof101 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:57 am

just read it...

uh oh gotta read it again :stinkylol: :stinkylol: :stinkylol: :stinkyhappy:
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Post by mette » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:47 pm

I must say I'm not liking what I read very much. I have never enjoyed RPGs and it sounds more and more like the new Wonderland will be an RPG :cry:

I like the new ideas for different visuals etc., but the talking bit I'd rather not have at all. If it must be there I will definitely prefer it to be simple, short and to the point. And with the ability to speed through it or cancel altogether. Having a ton of characters to talk to but only a small % that actually have something important to say annoys me a lot.

I can understand the motivations for making it more like an RPG, but if it gets too RPGish it just won't be for me :cry: :cry: :cry:

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Post by lwijsbroek » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:06 pm

I agree with Mette, do not make it to difficult, I tried to read what Robbie has been writing, but I must say I have to read it over and over again to understand what he means

Do not forget there are people from various countries, who have difficulties trying to understand all of this,when you are making the game more difficult wil definatly a lot of people stop playing, and they definatly will not buy the new game :stinkysad:

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