Two completely broken levels in Sundog Island...

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:00 am

I just thought you might be interested.

(Sorry if they've been posted before, but if so, I couldn't find them

.)

EDIT: Neat, my 333th post.

yot yot5 · Post by **yot yot5** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:21 pm

Wonderland King wrote:I just thought you might be interested. (Sorry if they've been posted before, but if so, I couldn't find them .)

EDIT: Neat, my 333th post.

Interesting finds. I'm not too bothered about the method you used in "Brr at the Shore", because the Brr-Slide trick can be used to break lots of levels and is normally ignored.

The "Cellar Evacuation" one is VERY weird, though. I guess whoever made the adventure just mixed up some of their tile logics.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:11 pm

Actually, I shouldn't be looking at this, I haven't finished MOFI... but I didn't look at "Brr at the Shore", I swear!

The "Cellar Excavation" picture, though, is merely an example of a bug that Qloof discovered during WA3 testing. It exists in all WA games. Loirae discovered a single case in "Clear the Way" during MOFI testing, but, AFAIK, that was it, no more investigations were done. At least, no one in the WA3 forum quoted anything more than that. So, to my knowledge, Qloof was the one to not only re-discover the bug itself, but prove that it's perfectly usable and abusable in a multitude of situations. It's not as game-breaking as it seems, but it does provide interesting shortcuts in some levels.

... aaaaand, since we decided to keep "Q-Spell" a secret, I'm not going to tell anything more. If you're smart enough to figure it out from this post, you deserve the knowledge.

MyNameIsKooky · Post by **MyNameIsKooky** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:01 pm

Just found out how to pull this exploit off. Good lord.

Muzozavr wrote:It's not as game-breaking as it seems

Oh please.

Muzozavr wrote:... aaaaand, since we decided to keep "Q-Spell" a secret, I'm not going to tell anything more.

I hope you AT LEAST reported this to MS.

|Cookie| · Post by **|Cookie|** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:48 pm

yot yot5 wrote:The "Cellar Evacuation" one is VERY weird, though. I guess whoever made the adventure just mixed up some of their tile logics.

I actually found this the first time I tried the level, and because I was stupid, I thought it was the original solution, and that half of the level is just pointless.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:57 pm

We did report it to MS. He decided that it might be quite popular with the players when they find out. Also his coding, in his own words, resembled a house of cards at this point, so he was afraid of tinkering with something as fundamental as spellball physics.

And it's not very game-breaking. Try to find uses for it in WA1, for instance. It does have some entertaining ones (case in point: "To Catch a Thief"

) but, overall, it's usually easier/faster to just do it the regular way.

I did some speedruns of WA1 levels back when I had a different computer that could record WA properly... so at first I thought it would completely rewrite like half of the speedrun routes for so many levels. Believe me when I say it doesn't. It really doesn't. The specific angle required is far less widespread than you'd think.

MyNameIsKooky · Post by **MyNameIsKooky** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:02 pm

Muzozavr wrote:We did report it to MS. He decided that it might be quite popular with the players when they find out. Also his coding, in his own words, resembled a house of cards at this point, so he was afraid of tinkering with something as fundamental as spellball physics.

Ah, okay. I can understand that.

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:12 pm

But the cool thing, as kidkidaaa said, is that using the trick, you can skip the entire turtle puzzle, which is what the level is all about.

The cool thing about Brr At The Shore? With enough Brr using that other trick, you can get the scritter on the indigo round button and as a result, smuggle the indigo key out of the level. I'm on vacation and don't have MOFI on this computer, but... what mischief can you guys do with it?

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:52 pm

In WA1, the same thing but with a yellow key can be done in "Frozen Doors". Also, if you get all three keys in "The Purple Shard" then do the "trick" you can leave with all three keys in your possession, but they're pretty much useless at that point.

I'm on a roll here. I've finally completed the one level in MOFI's Pirate Camp (for those curious, I have finally figured out "The Acid Swamp", the other level I did long before was, oddly enough, "Into the Deep Dark Cave") that I needed to get to the lockpick and reached Sundog Island.

I *will* replay other adventures later on (getting to the endgame with only a little over 50 stars is a bit lame) but for now I'm at Sundog Island, having passed "Welcome to Sundog Island" and solving two more levels there, "Lost in the Mines" and "Crevasse Chase". Very quick fingers required on that one!

Tried "Brr at the Shore" already. LOL at the troll. LOL at your way of bypassing it. Neat.

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:57 am

Never mind. I was half asleep when I wrote this post. It was supposed to mean something that was actually a half decent idea, but I worded it so it sounded really stupid, and I can't remember what it was supposed to mean...

yot yot5 · Post by **yot yot5** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:17 am

Muzozavr wrote:I'm on a roll here. I've finally completed the one level in MOFI's Pirate Camp (for those curious, I have finally figured out "The Acid Swamp", the other level I did long before was, oddly enough, "Into the Deep Dark Cave") that I needed to get to the lockpick and reached Sundog Island.

Nice work! Did you make any progress on "Clear the Way"? I've always found that to be the easiest adventure in the Pirate Camp.

Good luck on Sundog Island! Some truly amazing puzzles await you!

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:12 pm

I already accidentally spoiled "The Lost Ice Temple" for myself... bah. I was almost asleep and thought I just needed one small confirmation, I couldn't count the number of tiles in the water (note to self: playing MOFI at night is not a good way to solve anything) and I needed to confirm that it would work the way I wanted it to. Turns out the entire solution is different... and I could've known had I known beforehand that Growflowers cannot be placed on sunk turtles, making my solution invalid. Darn.

"Ice Flower Cave" is just weird as hell. I looked at a forum thread, I don't think I would've ever got the basic idea right because the bridge part does unfair things to player's expectations and requires inconceivable shenanigans to get past with more than 1 flo. I had no idea that was even possible. The rest of the puzzle seems to be quite brilliant and very difficult, but less so now that I know a few basic principles. However, I already regret looking because I would've been happier to deal with all the red herrings myself. Still, the bridge part is ridiculous.

Needless to say, I'm avoiding any peeks from now on. "Confirmation" just isn't possible anymore because these levels have many red herrings. The rest of the levels I'm planning to try and solve on my own, which includes not only Sundog Island but also the adventures I skipped long ago.

I think I'll be able to solve "The Fuse" and "Time Your Blink" next because they both seem to be mostly speed-based. Both look absolutely ridiculous, but I did manage to finish "Into the Deep Dark Cave" and "Crevasse Chase", so I should be able to do these two as well. Though I have to admit I'm kind of dreading "Time Your Blink" and its ice troll part.

As for "Clear the Way", it just looks too big, too difficult to plan out and has multiple paths which lead nowhere. Maybe I'm overthinking it and trying to break the level instead of doing the right thing, but I honestly found "The Acid Swamp" to be the easiest one once I figured out how to get the wee stinker out. The rest is (mostly) simply blinking all over the place.

I have to say I really like Sundog Island's puzzles better than Pirate Camp so far. The Pirate Camp puzzles tend to be random-ish and very unstable, with one misstep ruining the whole thing. "Don't Leave Me Behind" is an excellent example of that. Sundog Island is very hard, but its puzzles are stable and seem to be "repeatable" once you know the solution.

EDIT: "Time Your Blink" is brilliant. I loved the trick, very sneaky.

EDIT 2: "Hot and Cold" is very "Nintendo Hard" with lots of precision required, but the overall goal is obvious.
"Locks'n'Boomers" is ridiculously easy in comparison to everything else I've seen in Sundog Island so far.

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:37 pm

I thought "Hot and Cold" and ""Locks'n'Boomers" were really hard. I needed to look up the solution for "Hot and Cold".

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:21 pm

Playing "Brr at the Shore" without using your trickery reveals the genius of its puzzle. Though I did have 3 brrs left over at the end.

"The Fuse" had a hard ice puzzle, but once I solved it, it wasn't that hard to run through. On "Castle Walls", though, I missed the proper solution for the guarded buttons at the start, but instead found a way to recharge my blink. Had a devil of a time blinking on the buttons from the top, in and out.

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:16 am

Muzozavr wrote:Playing "Brr at the Shore" without using your trickery reveals the genius of its puzzle. Though I did have 3 brrs left over at the end.

WHAT? Tell us your secret immediately!

I honestly couldn't make heads or tails of the level, so I had to use my trick. It wasn't quite as elegant as the intended solution.

Muzozavr wrote:"The Fuse" had a hard ice puzzle, but once I solved it, it wasn't that hard to run through. On "Castle Walls", though, I missed the proper solution for the guarded buttons at the start, but instead found a way to recharge my blink. Had a devil of a time blinking on the buttons from the top, in and out.

Same on both of these levels.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:10 am

On "Brr at the Shore", the important thing is to figure out the scritter puzzle. You can't get out if you enter with a teleporter and you don't have enough Brr (normally) to make a different path, so... what's the only other way one could enter that island?

Even after I figured out what to do, figuring out how to do it still took me way more time than I'll ever admit.

yot yot5 · Post by **yot yot5** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:35 am

Muzozavr wrote:"Ice Flower Cave" is just weird as hell. I looked at a forum thread, I don't think I would've ever got the basic idea right because the bridge part does unfair things to player's expectations and requires inconceivable shenanigans to get past with more than 1 flo. I had no idea that was even possible. The rest of the puzzle seems to be quite brilliant and very difficult, but less so now that I know a few basic principles. However, I already regret looking because I would've been happier to deal with all the red herrings myself. Still, the bridge part is ridiculous.

Is it? I found it really easy to get past with 3 floing charges, which is the amount you need to complete the adventure with all the gems. Maybe you're missing a few tricks?

Muzozavr wrote:I have to say I really like Sundog Island's puzzles better than Pirate Camp so far. The Pirate Camp puzzles tend to be random-ish and very unstable, with one misstep ruining the whole thing. "Don't Leave Me Behind" is an excellent example of that. Sundog Island is very hard, but its puzzles are stable and seem to be "repeatable" once you know the solution.

I definitely agree with you there. Ironically, the only Pirate Camp adventure which I thought was relatively "stable" was "Clear the Way", which is the one you're having trouble with.

I also thought "The Acid Lake" was pretty good, too. But "Into the Deep, Dark Cave" and "Don't Leave me Behind" are FAR too hard.

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:03 pm

Muzozavr wrote:On "Brr at the Shore", the important thing is to figure out the scritter puzzle. You can't get out if you enter with a teleporter and you don't have enough Brr (normally) to make a different path, so... what's the only other way one could enter that island?

Even after I figured out what to do, figuring out how to do it still took me way more time than I'll ever admit.

I saw a video of the intended solution, and you have to use a transporter to get to the island, but it used all 9 Brrs. So really, what's your trick?

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:41 pm

Is it? I found it really easy to get past with 3 floing charges

If I can trap an enemy in a flo bubble, shoot brr in the SAME flo bubble and the enemy will be frozen when the bubble bursts, I cannot expect anything different to happen when I trap MYSELF in a flo bubble. I had no idea that the brr spellballs would just stop and disappear, acting as if "stinker-in-flo-bubble" and "wall" are the same things. The game never explains the side effects of trapping yourself in a flo bubble. So... no. Screw that bridge. The designer could lessen the amount of player's flo charges in a different way.

So really, what's your trick?

A different way of solving the transporter puzzle. If you watch cbloopy's video linked on mette's "MOFI stars" list, that's the solution I used.

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:09 pm

Muzozavr wrote:
Is it? I found it really easy to get past with 3 floing charges
If I can trap an enemy in a flo bubble, shoot brr in the SAME flo bubble and the enemy will be frozen when the bubble bursts, I cannot expect anything different to happen when I trap MYSELF in a flo bubble. I had no idea that the brr spellballs would just stop and disappear, acting as if "stinker-in-flo-bubble" and "wall" are the same things. The game never explains the side effects of trapping yourself in a flo bubble. So... no. Screw that bridge. The designer could lessen the amount of player's flo charges in a different way.

To be honest, I disagree with you on that one. If you don't figure out that trick, than you don't get gold, but you can still win the level. Spellballs in Floing bubbles don't act as walls, but any solid object does. It's a pretty neat trick.

Muzozavr wrote:
So really, what's your trick?
A different way of solving the transporter puzzle. If you watch cbloopy's video linked on mette's "MOFI stars" list, that's the solution I used.

But now you can never do anything with the indigo key.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:22 pm

To be honest, I disagree with you on that one. If you don't figure out that trick, than you don't get gold, but you can still win the level. Spellballs in Floing bubbles don't act as walls, but any solid object does. It's a pretty neat trick.

Flo + scritter + brr -> flo breaks -> scritter gets frozen
Flo + you + brr -> brr disappears even before flo breaks

EXPLAIN THE LOGIC.

You can't walk into enemies that are trapped in flo bubbles, so it makes sense for enemies to bounce off a flo-trapped stinker. That's genuinely neat. Spellballs, however, don't work identically on stinkers and enemies in flo bubbles. I will continue insisting that there's no way to know in advance.

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:37 pm

Muzozavr wrote:EXPLAIN THE LOGIC.

Ok.

A scritter isn't solid (you can walk right into it - it doesn't act like a wall or anything) so the spellball can go in the Floing bubble with it.

However, the player is "solid" by definition, so it takes up all the space in the Floing bubble.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:07 pm

Wait, I did only test this behavior on scritters... hang on, what happens if I try to flo-freeze a spikeyball?

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:15 pm

The spikeyball acts as an obstacle and the spellball can't go in the bubble.

Huh...

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:43 pm

OK then. Glad to know the situation is actually symmetrical. My fault then.

EDIT: Got "Abandoned Fort" but in a shameful coinless and gemless way. There IS no way to get those and still be able to recharge floing, right? I'm also clueless how to use the teleporters to your advantage (I did the level without them) and/or how to beat the level without having to recharge floing.

EDIT 2: I read other solution threads and people have managed to get the gems/coins playing the level this way, recharging floing and all... next time I just have to be faster, I guess.

Wonderland King · Post by **Wonderland King** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:12 pm

Okay, I just got really confused about the spellball/Floing bubble thing.

About "Abandoned Fort", you can recharge Floing as many times as you want, as long as you remember to leave one bubble out in the open.

EDIT: My 350th post.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:32 pm

I know, I just couldn't get the gems and then get back to the flo charger fast enough. I think I know what I was doing wrong, too. I should be able to get the gems when I replay the level later. After all, I want to solve everything there is to solve before finishing the game... though I will make a separate savefile to "claim" the last level, "At the End of it All".

Two completely broken levels in Sundog Island...

Two completely broken levels in Sundog Island...

Re: Two completely broken levels in Sundog Island...

Re: Two completely broken levels in Sundog Island...