Tricky Puzzles - Topic 3

For discussion of non-Wonderland topics - please read rules!

Moderators: ~xpr'd~, tyteen4a03, Stinky, Emerald141, Qloof234, jdl

User avatar
yot yot5
Rainbow SuperStar
Posts: 2294
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 1:24 pm

Post by yot yot5 » Mon May 20, 2013 5:03 pm

How can you prove that half of twelve is seven?
User avatar
LittleZbot
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:51 pm
Contact:

Post by LittleZbot » Mon May 20, 2013 5:14 pm

Uh...what?
Remember to look at the dates that every post is made. It's been many years, and I, and others, may not be the same people we were when we made them. This is a symbol of where we came from, and should be remembered as that.
User avatar
yot yot5
Rainbow SuperStar
Posts: 2294
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 1:24 pm

Post by yot yot5 » Mon May 20, 2013 7:30 pm

LittleZbot wrote:Uh...what?
How can you prove that half of twelve is seven?

(Not half of 12 is 7, mind you)
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Tue May 21, 2013 12:22 am

yot yot5 wrote:
LittleZbot wrote:Uh...what?
How can you prove that half of twelve is seven?

(Not half of 12 is 7, mind you)
Technically, it's not "twelve" and "seven", but "XII" and "VII" that results from cutting the bottom half away. :wink:
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
Technos72
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3227
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:20 am
Location: Usa
Contact:

Post by Technos72 » Tue May 21, 2013 12:27 am

Ah. I've seen that riddle before.

I can come up with a new puzzle right? If so,

It is possible to cut a hole in a postcard image that is large enough for a man to step through, but how?
User avatar
LittleZbot
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:51 pm
Contact:

Post by LittleZbot » Tue May 21, 2013 12:54 am

It's a really big postcard and it's a really big hole.
Remember to look at the dates that every post is made. It's been many years, and I, and others, may not be the same people we were when we made them. This is a symbol of where we came from, and should be remembered as that.
User avatar
yot yot5
Rainbow SuperStar
Posts: 2294
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 1:24 pm

Post by yot yot5 » Tue May 21, 2013 9:40 am

Technos72 wrote:It is possible to cut a hole in a postcard image that is large enough for a man to step through, but how?
Cut it into a long, jagged loop of thin paper.
User avatar
Technos72
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3227
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:20 am
Location: Usa
Contact:

Post by Technos72 » Tue May 21, 2013 10:57 am

Yes. But where should you cut on the postcard?
User avatar
yot yot5
Rainbow SuperStar
Posts: 2294
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 1:24 pm

Post by yot yot5 » Tue May 21, 2013 11:40 am

Technos72 wrote:Yes. But where should you cut on the postcard?
Cut like this:

x= CUTS
0= PAPER

000x000x000x000x000x000
0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0
0x000x000x000x000x000x0
0xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx0
0x000x000x000x000x000x0
0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0
000x000x000x000x000x000
User avatar
Technos72
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3227
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:20 am
Location: Usa
Contact:

Post by Technos72 » Tue May 21, 2013 3:34 pm

Correct
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Wed May 22, 2013 10:11 pm

No one is posting anything, so I will give you a "puzzle" that isn't actually a puzzle, but still is, in a certain way - it's a Zen koan. Googling is useless, you won't find any answer. I actually used to consider Zen koans meaningless until this one (and a few others from the same book, "The Gateless Gate") somehow "clicked" for me in a beautiful, concise interpretation.

***
A Zen student told Ummon: "Brilliancy of Buddha illuminates the whole universe."
Before he finished the phrase Ummon asked: "You are reciting another's poem, are you not?"
"Yes," answered the student.
"You are sidetracked," said Ummon.
Afterwards another teacher, Shishin, asked his pupils: "At what point did that student go off the track?"
***

The Russian translation uses the words "You are lying" (instead of "You are sidetracked"), which are, as far as I know, not strictly correct but they can make the koan more (or less) comprehensible. However, in this case I genuinely prefer the English translation.

So, at what point did that student make the error that sidetracked him? I'd like to see your answers *before* telling you mine.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
LittleZbot
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:51 pm
Contact:

Post by LittleZbot » Wed May 22, 2013 10:50 pm

The word "Buddah?"
Remember to look at the dates that every post is made. It's been many years, and I, and others, may not be the same people we were when we made them. This is a symbol of where we came from, and should be remembered as that.
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Wed May 22, 2013 11:27 pm

No, my spelling is correct. (and copy-pasted directly from the book, too)

Actually, the spelling is irrelevant here because they weren't writing e-mails to each other ( :lol: ), they were speaking.

It's not a trick question. There are ways to give a genuine answer.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
Nobody
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5545
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:52 pm

Post by Nobody » Thu May 23, 2013 4:30 am

That dude totally shouldn't have said "the". What a useless word.

yeah idk
i should change my signature to be rude to people who hate pictures of valves
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Thu May 23, 2013 6:37 am

Answer the koan, not the trick question. :wink:

Some of the information isn't really "there" and the English version has even less information. The Russian translation at least tells you that he was reciting the words of a famous Zen master, which can be an important clue for some.

As far as my interpretation goes, I'll give you a clue: he recited the words correctly, but he still made a mistake that Ummon calls him out on.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
LittleZbot
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:51 pm
Contact:

Post by LittleZbot » Thu May 23, 2013 3:49 pm

He repeated them in the wrong language?
Remember to look at the dates that every post is made. It's been many years, and I, and others, may not be the same people we were when we made them. This is a symbol of where we came from, and should be remembered as that.
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Thu May 23, 2013 9:23 pm

LittleZbot wrote:He repeated them in the wrong language?
Conventional interpretation of your answer: could be... could be that Ummon was just being petty for reasons that would make more sense in context that we (and Shishin's pupils) lack... but then why Shishin made a big deal out of it? After all, it makes just as much (or as little) sense to his pupils as it does to us.

You can make your version into a VERY strong answer, BTW - but only if you explain why changing languages was the wrong thing to do. There's at least one reasonable explanation that I can come up with immediately, but it's based on my answer, so I'd like to see your ideas first.

Metaphorical interpretation of your answer: you could say that. :wink: More exactly, he repeated them in a "language" they weren't meant for. But what do I mean by that? That's starting to become a koan in and of itself, no? :? :wink: :?:
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
LittleZbot
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:51 pm
Contact:

Post by LittleZbot » Thu May 23, 2013 10:35 pm

He said it the wrong way, like in the wrong tone, or he mispronounced the words.

Seeing as I have no idea what a "koan" is, this is kind of tough for me to figure out.
Remember to look at the dates that every post is made. It's been many years, and I, and others, may not be the same people we were when we made them. This is a symbol of where we came from, and should be remembered as that.
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Fri May 24, 2013 8:18 am

LittleZbot wrote:He said it the wrong way, like in the wrong tone, or he mispronounced the words.
Wrong way - yes. Could be. Wrong tone - actually *very* probable, your answer becomes fuller and more complete with every post! But what could make the tone mistake such a big one?

And no, he didn't mispronounce the words - after all, that part of the text is written in reported speech. But everything else you're saying is a big possibility.
LittleZbot wrote:Seeing as I have no idea what a "koan" is, this is kind of tough for me to figure out.
A koan is like a riddle, but not really. It's a story that seems meaningless or nonsensical at first glance. It's a very specific type of "story" and "nonsense".

Most of them really are completely meaningless, but become meaningful when told to the right person. That's just how they work. The mindset of the other person provides the missing context that allows the koan to be answered. Also, don't google definitions of the word "koan", they all suck.

I chose the koan that can make sense to all people that like to constantly improve their logic and thinking skills. I mean, we're all Wonderlanders here. :wink:

Depending on the other person, the same koan may have different solutions. Zen teachers are usually extremely picky, but since all of them also have different interpretations of the same koans, I'd consider them all equally valid. :wink: All that an interpretation has to do, IMO, is to answer *all* of a koan, not just a part of it.

The classic "what is the sound of the one hand?" koan (full version here) can be answered, depending on the other person in some of the following ways:

1) The one hand makes no sound. The koan is about the importance of cooperation.
2) The one hand *does* make a sound, we just can't hear it. Strike a pose and thrust your hand sideways. One book says "forward" but we don't clap back and forth, we clap left and right, so I think sideways would be better.
3) Clench your fist quickly enough in order to make a clapping sound. I think Bart Simpson did that, but I don't know, I've never watched that show.
4) The sound of one hand clapping is a facepalm. :lol: :lol: :lol: (my favorite answer, BTW)

Only the first one is a metaphorical answer and only the second one is a "classic" answer that doesn't make the koan hilarious in hindsight, but all four work. They're just different approaches to the same "puzzle".

The koan I chose, though, does not (or, at least, should not) *have* physical answers such as facepalming or thrusting your hand sideways. :wink: But you don't need to go all metaphorical either, the literal answers are very simple and LittleZbot, you are on the right track and are extremely close...
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
Nobody
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5545
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:52 pm

Post by Nobody » Fri May 24, 2013 9:23 am

Muzozavr wrote:Wrong way - yes. Could be. Wrong tone - actually *very* probable, your answer becomes fuller and more complete with every post! But what could make the tone mistake such a big one?
Sarcasm.
i should change my signature to be rude to people who hate pictures of valves
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Fri May 24, 2013 9:26 am

Nobody wrote:
Muzozavr wrote:Wrong way - yes. Could be. Wrong tone - actually *very* probable, your answer becomes fuller and more complete with every post! But what could make the tone mistake such a big one?
Sarcasm.
Or sincerity, or complete and utter indifference... we don't know what the original tone was, so there's no way to know what the wrong one was, either... but there's still a way to know why it was wrong.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
LittleZbot
Rainbow MegaStar
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:51 pm
Contact:

Post by LittleZbot » Fri May 24, 2013 4:34 pm

This is hard.

Wait a second, why is "very" surrounded by asterisks? (*)
Remember to look at the dates that every post is made. It's been many years, and I, and others, may not be the same people we were when we made them. This is a symbol of where we came from, and should be remembered as that.
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Fri May 24, 2013 5:07 pm

LittleZbot wrote:This is hard.

Wait a second, why is "very" surrounded by asterisks? (*)
Don't pay any attention to such things, please. I just wanted to emphasize that word, but since I'm using italics way too much, I had to use something else.

Answer the koan, not the trick question. :wink:
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
yot yot5
Rainbow SuperStar
Posts: 2294
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 1:24 pm

Post by yot yot5 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:09 am

I've spent a long time on this... I hope you're ready for some REAL brain food!

CAPAIN SCRITTERBRAIN'S TREASURE
This puzzle was originally found in an Usborne Superpuzzles book, imaginatively named "Logic Puzzles". I do not own the design of the puzzle. On the other hand, the text and Wonderlandic rewrite are my work. The puzzle is extremely advanced, and you should give yourself at least an hour to solve it.

The Story So Far...
One day, while poking around in your attic, you find an old journal. After reading the first few pages, you deduce that the journal belonged to the famous pirate, Captain Scritterbrain! Scritterbrain was well-known for his passion for solving puzzles, possibly only matched by Stinky himself! According to the journal, Scritterbrain hid his hoard of treasure somewhere in Wonderland. Being the brave young stinker that you are, you decide to go off into the wilderness and find this treasure for yourself! There's just one little problem: Captain Scritterbrain didn't write down the location of his treasure directly. Instead, (being the genius that he was) he devised an ingenious puzzle.

Can you make head or tail of it?

25th of Octember, 1670
It is over. I am dying. My treasure is hidden, but unless I reveal its location now, it will never be found. Very well then, here I go: the treasure is hidden under the big rock in... Wait! Why should I do this? Why should the location of my treasure be given to the first person who happens to be lucky enough to find this journal? Where's the sense in that? My fortune should be given only to the cleverest of stinkers! I shall write down the location in a cunning maze puzzle. It will be a riddle only the brightest stinkers will be able to untangle!

From my travels, I have found 10 possible hiding places for my treasure. These locations are shown below, along with some information.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Sundog Island
Size: 20 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Scritters, chompers
Weather: Very cold

Stinky's Cove
Size: 20 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Chompers
Weather: Average

The Windy Hills
Size: 30 square sinkomiles
Inhabited by: Scritters
Weather: Average

Mushroom Grove
Size: 10 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Chompers
Weather: Average

Wondertown
Size: 30 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Chompers
Weather: Average

Crystal Lake
Size: 20 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Chompers, dragonturtles
Weather: Very cold

Foggy Peak
Size: 20 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Scritters, fireflowers
Weather: Very cold

Lonely Top
Size: 20 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Scritters, chompers
Weather: Very cold

Fire Island Jungle
Size: 30 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Scritters
Weather: Average

Fire Island Acid Pools
Size: 40 square stinkomiles
Inhabited by: Chompers
Weather: Average

-------------------------------------------------------------------

You might've noticed that the locations were placed in order, from WEST to EAST. The first five locations were on the west side of Wonderland, and the last five locations were on the east side of Wonderland. In one of these places, I hid my treasure. In the other nine, I placed vicious booby traps. These traps are, in no particular order:

A pitfall trap
A boulder trap
A swinging axe trap
A firepit trap
A cage trap
An exploding barrel trap
A chomper trap
A fireflower trap
A spikeyball trap

Now comes the fun bit! Using the following clues, you must deduce which locations hide my traps, and which location holds the treasure! Good luck!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

1: The exploding barrel trap is not on Wonderland's mainland.
2: The exploding barrel trap is not on the same side of Wonderland as the boulder trap.
3: The firepit trap is in a location which scritters have inhabited.
4: The fireflower trap is in a location which two species have inhabited.
5: The swinging axe trap is in a larger location than the firepit trap.
6: The pitfall trap is in a larger location that the spikeyball trap.
7: The pitfall trap is in a smaller location than the treasure.
8: The fireflower trap is in a location which chompers have inhabited, but only if the swinging axe trap is in a very cold location.
9: The fireflower trap is not on the same side of Wonderland as the chomper trap, but only if the chomper trap is not on Wonderland's mainland.
10: The fireflower trap is not on the same side of Wonderland as the boulder trap, but only if the fireflower trap is on the west side of Wonderland.
11: The cage trap is somewhere in the foggy mountains, but NOT if the fireflower trap is on the west side of Wonderland.
12: The treasure is on the same side of Wonderland as the pitfall trap, but NOT if the firepit trap is in a location which chompers have inhabited.
User avatar
StinkerSquad01
Rainbow AllStar
Posts: 4251
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:39 am

Post by StinkerSquad01 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:17 pm

Ooooh, a logic puzzle. :twisted:
Muzozavr
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5648
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:55 pm

Post by Muzozavr » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:31 am

Seeing as the only answer to my koan was a bit incomplete, here goes my answer:

He either repeated the words in the wrong context, or in the wrong tone, but basically, for whatever reason, he failed to reproduce the original meaning of these words. The words themselves are merely a shell for what they mean. So yes, he did repeat the words of a famous Zen master, but he did not really repeat the words of that Zen master. :wink:
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
User avatar
VirtLands
Rainbow Master
Posts: 756
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:49 am

base 12

Post by VirtLands » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:29 pm

yot yot5 wrote:How can you prove that half of twelve is seven?
In base 12, (also known as dozenal or duodecimal) , ...

half of 12 is indeed 7 , ...

because 12₁₂ = 2₁₂*7₁₂ = 14₁₀

or, in other words, 12₁₂/2₁₂ = 7₁₂ = 14₁₀/2₁₂

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal
http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_conv ... mbers.html
User avatar
yot yot5
Rainbow SuperStar
Posts: 2294
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: base 12

Post by yot yot5 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:44 am

VirtLands wrote:
yot yot5 wrote:How can you prove that half of twelve is seven?
In base 12, (also known as dozenal or duodecimal) , ...

half of 12 is indeed 7 , ...

because 12₁₂ = 2₁₂*7₁₂ = 14₁₀

or, in other words, 12₁₂/2₁₂ = 7₁₂ = 14₁₀/2₁₂

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal
http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_conv ... mbers.html
Whoa. I didn't think of that.

Has anybody solved the logic puzzle yet?
User avatar
Nobody
Rainbow Spirit Chaser
Posts: 5545
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:52 pm

Post by Nobody » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:26 pm

Muzozavr wrote:Technically, it's not "twelve" and "seven", but "XII" and "VII" that results from cutting the bottom half away. :wink:
VirtLands had the better solution.
i should change my signature to be rude to people who hate pictures of valves
User avatar
VirtLands
Rainbow Master
Posts: 756
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:49 am

base number systems

Post by VirtLands » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:44 pm

There is documentation on other number base systems too.
Here is a list of seldom used bases, and their various names.

[ Data taken from the following links:
http://www.mogulonline.9f.com/Numeral%20System.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numeral_systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nu ... iad_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:N ... al_systems ]

base 1: unary (..yuck..)
base 2 : binary,
base 3 : ternary, trinary
base 4 : quaternary,
base 5 : quinary, quinternary
base 6 : senary, heximal, hexary
base 7 : septenary, septuary
base 8 : octal, octonary, octonal, octimal
base 9 : nonary, novary, noval
base 10 : denary, decimal.
base 11 : undecimal, undenary, unodecimal
base 12 : dozenal, duodenary or duodecimal,

base-13 : tridecimal, tredecimal, triskaidecimal, triodecimal

base 14 : tetradecimal, quadrodecimal, quattuordecimal
base 15 : pentadecimal, quindecimal
base 16 : hexadecimal, sexadecimal, sedecimal
base 17 : septendecimal, heptadecimal
base 18 : octodecimal, decennoctal
base 19 : nonadecimal, novodecimal, decennoval

base 20 : vigesimal, bigesimal, bidecimal
base 21 : unovigesimal, unobigesimal
base 22 : duovigesimal
base 23 : triovigesimal
base 24 : quadrovigesimal, quadriovigesimal
base 25 : pentavigesimal
base 26 : hexavigesimal, sexavigesimal
base 27 : heptovigesimal
base 28 : octovigesimal
base 29 : novovigesimal
base 30 : trigesimal, triogesimal

base 31 : unotrigesimal
base 32 : Duotrigesimal, "Base32 encoding, and the Ngiti language"

...............(...repeat naming pattern...)
base 36 : hexatridecimal, sexatrigesimal, hexatrigesimal, alphadecimal
...............(...repeat naming pattern...)
base 40 : quadragesimal, quadrigesimal
base 41 : unoquadragesimal
...............(...repeat naming pattern...)
base 50 : quinquagesimal, pentagesimal
base 51 : unoquinquagesimal
base 60 : sexagesimal
base 64 : quadrosexagesimal
base 70 : septagesimal, heptagesimal
base 80 : octagesimal, octogesimal
base 90 : nonagesimal, novagesimal
base 100 : centimal, centesimal
...............(...repeat naming pattern...)
base 110 : decacentimal
base 111 : unodecacentimal
base 200 : bicentimal / bicentesimal
...............(...repeat naming pattern...)
base 210 : decabicentimal
base 211 : unodecabicentimal
...............(...repeat naming pattern...)
base 300 : tercentimal, tricentesimal
base 400 : quattrocentimal, quadricentesimal
base 500 : quincentimal, pentacentesimal
base 600 : hexacentimal, hexacentesimal
base 700 : heptacentimal, heptacentesimal
base 800 : octacentimal, octocentimal, octacentesimal, octocentesimal
base 900 : novacentimal, novacentesimal
base 1000 : millesimal
base 2000 : bimillesimal
...............(...repeat naming pattern...)
base 10000 : decamillesimal
----------------------------------------------------------
Negative Bases:
base -2 : Negabinary
base -3 : Negaternary

Complex Bases:
base 2i : Quater-imaginary base
base (−1 ± i) : Twindragon base
----------------------------------------------------------
Non-integer bases
Base Name
φ : Golden ratio base
e : Base e
π : Base pi
√2 : Base sqrt{2}
¹²√2 : Base twelveth root of 2 (or twelfth root of 2)
----------------------------------------------------------

Numbers Base Coverter: http://www.unitconversion.org/unit_conv ... mbers.html

And, there are 4 different ways of saying "base 13", why doesn't that surprise me. ? :)
Post Reply