WonderWiki - A wiki for Wonderland

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:31 pm

MyNameIsKooky wrote:Okay, I'm looking through the recently edited pages and having to read "He/She" and "Him/Her" over and over again is annoying.

I really think we should assume stinkers to be male unless officially stated otherwise.

Why? It's incorrect to use a definite gender when the gender is indefinite.

Emerald141 wrote:
billy bob wrote:What?
It's a euphemism for me feeling like I'm really not appreciated here. You're proclaiming how you're so great and helpful and brilliant, and at the same time you're ratting on me for being insignificant and ridiculous and lowly. Why do you have to be such a snob?

What? I did not say anything about you! You were saying I had done nothing except annoy, and that you were doing the most currently. I posted that to say that you were wrong: I have made many contributions, not to say that I am great and helpful and brilliant. I never said that you have been insignificant or ridiculous or lowly.

MyNameIsKooky · Post by **MyNameIsKooky** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:34 pm

billy bob wrote:
MyNameIsKooky wrote:Okay, I'm looking through the recently edited pages and having to read "He/She" and "Him/Her" over and over again is annoying.

I really think we should assume stinkers to be male unless officially stated otherwise.
Why? It's incorrect to use a definite gender when the gender is indefinite.

Because it's bothersome to read "he or she" over and over again since the stinker/Kaboom!/etc is referred to several times throughout the page. I say we should come to a conclusion on their genders, but if we can't, then we should just refer to the stinkers with unconfirmed genders as its.

Emerald141 · Post by **Emerald141** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:35 pm

MyNameIsKooky · Post by **MyNameIsKooky** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:37 pm

Emerald141 wrote:Don't you want, y'know, people to actually be able to read the article?

Exactly my point. The overload of "him or her"s and "he or she"s were interrupting my train of thought.

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:46 pm

Emerald141 wrote:Maybe that wasn't the intended meaning, but simply comparing yourself to someone else has a very bad connotation. And what makes you think political correctness is so important? Don't you want, y'know, people to actually be able to read the article?

It wasn't the intended meaning. I happen to know because I made the message.

About it being unreadable, I don't know how you find it unreadable (it is readable to me), but if this is the case then I think we now should use something else, but more importantly still be correct of course.

Emerald141 · Post by **Emerald141** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:51 pm

MyNameIsKooky · Post by **MyNameIsKooky** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:51 pm

billy bob wrote:About it being unreadable, I don't know how you find it unreadable (it is readable to me)

It's readable, but it's a pain to read.

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:57 pm

If you take your best guess then it will always be 50% chance that it is correct. Unless MS says, we will never know.

Emerald141 · Post by **Emerald141** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:59 pm

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:06 pm

Emerald141 wrote:I disagree. While in real life genders are about evenly divided, the WA system sorta leans toward male types.

How?

Emerald141 wrote:And it's not like hat styles are the same in both genders. If you counted all the people who wore tophats when they were fashionable, I'd say the ratio of males to females would be about a million to one.

Humans, on Earth. We are talking about Stinkers, in Wonderland. And even if it were one million to one, it still wouldn't be definite.

Emerald141 · Post by **Emerald141** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:08 pm

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:10 pm

This is different: we are talking about a thing where everything has to be correct.

Emerald141 · Post by **Emerald141** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:11 pm

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:14 pm

On a Wikipedia, when something is not fact, it should be deleted or changed. Everybody knows that. Including you.

And there is no such thing as over-correctness.

MyNameIsKooky · Post by **MyNameIsKooky** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:16 pm

billy bob wrote:This is different: we are talking about a thing where everything has to be correct.

That's what we're aiming for, but we're going to have to make some conclusions based off of evidence. We can't just leave the stinker's genders floating around.

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:17 pm

If you take your best guess then it will always be 50% chance that it is correct. Unless MS says, we will never know.

Emerald141 · Post by **Emerald141** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:22 pm

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:24 pm

Yes, I saw.

I'm going to sleep now.

Emerald141 · Post by **Emerald141** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:27 pm

MyNameIsKooky · Post by **MyNameIsKooky** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:30 pm

billy bob wrote:If you take your best guess then it will always be 50% chance that it is correct. Unless MS says, we will never know.

True, we may never know for sure, but it will be nice to come to a conclusion. Besides, we have evidence from the stinker's personality to tell us their gender (or what is most likely to be their gender).

For the whole "he/she" thing, you're outvoted. Both myself and Emerald want to give the stinkers a gender, so let's do that.

StinkerSquad01 · Post by **StinkerSquad01** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:02 am

I don't see the point. What's wrong with he/she?

Because we don't know their genders really, it makes sense to put something that shows, "We don't actually know the gender, it was never told."

And it's not like whenever you read he/she, your eyes just get so tired, and you fall asleep or something. (What?

)

And don't go off and throw the argument at me.

MyNameIsKooky · Post by **MyNameIsKooky** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:05 am

Mayor Scarredy's Page wrote:By his/her own admission, Mayor Scarredy is a coward. If the player asks him/her if he/she wants to accompany him/her and Morklin, he/she says he/she is too scared to do so, adding "they don't call me Mayor Scarredy for nothing!" Few other aspects of his/her personality can be discerned, as he/she does not say very much throughout the game.

Don't tell me that's not irritating to read.

tyteen4a03 · Post by **tyteen4a03** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:30 am

I kept forgetting to make this announcement...

Readability is WonderWiki's main concern. Although it might not be politically correct and strictly logical, the use of he/she on stinkers with unknown gender is still an eye-hurter.

The use of he/she is now disallowed. If a stinker's gender is unknown, please use he. Note that WonderWiki administrators has the final say.

Emerald141 wrote:My point is that if I'm in the staff on one of Tyteen's services, and all the other members on the staff also have authority in another of Tyteen's services, I don't see why I shouldn't be in that group too.

Services administration are service-specific. The other admins are also Network Administrators so they automatically get admin everywhere. As you see, Evan is an admin on 3.studIo forums, but since he is not a Network Administrator, he doesn't get admin on WW.

PS: How 3.studIo was born: WonderServices (run by DYT studio, some random studio we thought of on Skype) and Evina Forums were merged together.
PS2: Network Administrators currently are also directors.
PS3: The network got hacked (if anybody gets this joke, but oh well)

Back to waiting for MediaWiki 1.17.

EDIT: Fixed stupid typo

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:39 am

It is better to not know than to be misled, but you are the administrator; OK.

Can I at least put a piece of text at the bottom saying "Certain words in this article have implied that a Wonderland character's gender is male (or multiple Wonderland characters' genders are male). This is only for the article's readability, the character's gender is (or the characters' genders are) unknown like all other [[Wonderland (series)|Wonderland]] characters' genders."?

dlcs18 · Post by **dlcs18** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:26 am

Perhaps there could be a template saying:

"The gender of this character is unknown.
Gender-specific words are used to improve the readability of this article."

which could be put at the top of all articles about characters with unknown genders.

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:42 am

OK. I'll do that.

StinkerSquad01 · Post by **StinkerSquad01** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:31 pm

MyNameIsKooky wrote:
Mayor Scarredy's Page wrote:By his/her own admission, Mayor Scarredy is a coward. If the player asks him/her if he/she wants to accompany him/her and Morklin, he/she says he/she is too scared to do so, adding "they don't call me Mayor Scarredy for nothing!" Few other aspects of his/her personality can be discerned, as he/she does not say very much throughout the game.
Don't tell me that's not irritating to read.

Ok, I didn't know it was used that much. Go ahead, do what you want.

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:42 pm

Done.

But it doesn't fully work; we need to make "The gender of this character is unknown." work for when gender-specific words are used for a character in an article which isn't about the character. For example, see Mysteries of Fire Island; the template doesn't work and yet gender-specific words have been used. It needs to be something like "A character's gender (or multiple characters' genders) in this article is (or are) unknown.", but better worded.

The template is here.

EDIT: I see what you have done Dlcs18.

billy bob · Post by **billy bob** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:30 pm

I think it is all done now.

Marinus · Post by **Marinus** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:51 pm

billy bob wrote:On a Wikipedia, when something is not fact, it should be deleted or changed. Everybody knows that. Including you.

How can you talk about facts, while it's about fictive characters?

And how do you know those fictive characters have two genders; male and female, just the same way as humans? Perhaps they only have one gender like a snail or a worm, or, perhaps even more then two, like some people from another planet we've never met.