Forum Suggestion? :)

Triana · Post by **Triana** » Fri May 06, 2005 7:21 am

Maybe something like this has already been discussed, but I haven't seen it yet.

You have a section for adding new levels for upload. I'd like very much to see another section for "Hints and Spoilers" for the new levels.

Been thinking about this for a while.

Let me explain my thinking.

Anyone who has played a game like this, or like the Lemmings, has wanted to go back at some point and play it again. Unfortunately, you have to play through a lot of levels AND complete them before you can move on. Sometimes you just want to do a few quickies for fun.

I'd like to see all levels with some hints and instructions that could be saved for three years down the road when this forum may no longer be available. I mean... we have the games saved. What happens 3 years from now when we want to try a few again, and can't get anywhere?

If there was a separate section, people could grab the levels without the temptation to read the spoilers right in front of their face. Yet hints and spoilers would be available if needed.

The authors of the levels may quit coming around. If no one can figure the level out, its useless to have it available for download.

I've searched for a number of hints on various custom levels, and they're difficult if not impossible to find. This way they'd all be in one place.

In the separate section, it could have a sticky at the top, giving URLs to the online solutions.

Each posting could use a naming scheme for the postings. For instance, in the new custom levels, the posting titles first say "New Level -- "

It might be good to use a naming scheme like this...
HINT (or spoiler) - Author's Folder Name - Level Name
ex: HINT - JeannieWI - Candy Canes
or: SPOILER - JeannieWI - Candy Canes

That way when someone did a search on the forum, they could search for my folder name OR the level name and actually find it. They would also find a posting of hints, or a posting of spoilers, and could decide what they wanted to read.

Or, the naming scheme could be just: Author's folder name - Level Name
Ex: JeannieWI - Candy Canes
In that case hints could be in the first post and spoilers in the second post in that thread.

I realize this complicates things a bit, but I think in the long run it would make things much easier.

You can send kabooms my way if this is an annoying idea.

mette · Post by **mette** » Fri May 06, 2005 11:51 am

Hi Jean,

I think it's an excellent idea, except for the fact, that it would require a lot of work if this hints/solutions section should be complete. There's about 2500 custom levels at the time being. Who should write the hints/solutions for those? I know I'm not hooked on the idea of writing hints/solutions even for my own old levels, it would take ages.

As I said, I think the idea is excellent, but I don't think it's possible to actually get it done.

Mette

ol'gramma · Post by **ol'gramma** » Fri May 06, 2005 12:40 pm

If there was a separate section, people could grab the levels without the temptation to read the spoilers right in front of their face.

That is what the Discussion Forum is for.
Stuck? Need a Hint? Let us know, you can bet that someone will have an answer immediately.

Not our job to deliver anyone from spoiler temptation. IF you don't want to know, don't read it...there are plenty of warnings.

O/G

Triana · Post by **Triana** » Fri May 06, 2005 2:24 pm

I wouldn't suggest any of the regular game levels be included, if they are already up on the website... but there are quite a few of those solutions missing. If anyone wanted to add their notes, they could. That way Patrick could take that info and add it to the website if he felt so inclined too, and fill in the holes there.

I also don't think anyone should be required to go back and try to add past hints and solutions for past custom levels. I just think it would be a nice growing section as more levels were created.

Of course, anyone could add hints/solutions for past custom levels too... I'm sure no one would complain

And the information wouldn't need to be added only by the author of the level. For instance, as I go through some of these levels that have no online solutions, I often quickly write something up for myself. Even if its just a little text file, with basic information, its better than nothing.

Or if you do stumble on information on a level that stumped you somewhere on the forum, but its spread out in a number of different posts, you might want to just throw it all into one post in this section. How long would that take really? Couple minutes, and its there for everyone. Quick copy/paste to notepad, then a copy paste to a new post in the hints section, and another custom level has been added to the list of solutions.

popo · Post by **popo** » Fri May 06, 2005 2:44 pm

Firstly, Patrick didn't want online solutions for every level. He may think that makes things too easy.

Secondly, the custom levels have solutions within them if the author feels they are needed, and you can always ask. Most of us would prefer people to work things out for themselves and would post solutions straight away.

Thirdly, why on earth do you think the forum won't still be around in another 3 years? Do you know something we don't?:shock:

Triana · Post by **Triana** » Fri May 06, 2005 2:47 pm

Forget I mentioned it.

popo · Post by **popo** » Fri May 06, 2005 2:50 pm

Good idea in theory, just not very workable. Plus new sections can only be added by Patrick. You can always beg, like I said before.

Gen · Post by **Gen** » Fri May 06, 2005 4:58 pm

From what I understand from communications with Patrick, he doesn't want to add any more forums to the board. The more forums there are, the more work it is to manage them. His job is to develop more games, not manage this board.

That said, Triana, I have had the same thoughts as you. However, I have used the search function to try to find hints for levels that are older. Sometimes they are there and sometimes not. Personally, I like the idea of giving hints on the level thread in the white font. If you want to read it you can, if not, skip it. I don't particularly like asking for a hint in a PM. To me it is intruding on the author's time to have to answer a bunch of PMs. I have done it, but only in desperation and sparingly. These are my thoughts as a mere player. The authors may have different thoughts.

Bearsland · Post by **Bearsland** » Fri May 06, 2005 7:03 pm

popo wrote:Firstly, Patrick didn't want online solutions for every level. He may think that makes things too easy.

I totally agree with Patrick on this one.

I actually mentioned during the testing that I thought there were too many hints and solutions posted for Secret Worlds as it is. I know most won't agree, but I really think it makes the game even easier than it already is.

Post by **Midnight Synergy** » Fri May 06, 2005 7:28 pm

Hi folks,

thanks for the suggestions and comments.

I actually think the forum is getting large enough that maybe there is the need to explore its future a little bit. What sort of things would make it more usable, what sort of things would you like to see, etc.

I think a level database (sortable by creator, difficulty, etc, with clickable solutions, etc) would be a fantastic idea. One problem is that it would be a lot of work (basically somebody would need to go through the thousands of posts and copy/paste them into the appropriate spots, asign levels to creators, difficulty levels, etc).

Second problem is that I'm not planning on doing this myself - for one I really want to get crackin' on the next game project, rather than spend most of the time on forum programming, and more importantly, I'm not much of a web-programmer. I don't have much experience with it, which is why I've gone with a "tried and true" available forum package. But if someone were potentially interested in doing the programming/maintaining part (some of it for compensation, some of it volunteer based) the whole project might become a lot more doable.

I am likely going to be doing some minor redesigns on the main website this month (add a few new features), so this might be a good time to talk about general ideas of what you'd like to do with this forum to keep it growing, lively, and useful.

I'll just open the floor to suggestions - don't worry about if it can be done, just don't expect that it will be done either.

(as for not having all solutions on the main website - I feel that, given the cheat to skip levels, nobody is ever held back in the game, and hope that a few missing solutions will get people interested in participating in the forums - some of you have already agreed/disagreed with this idea, anyone else feel free to chime in)

Cheers,
Patrick

Triana · Post by **Triana** » Fri May 06, 2005 11:13 pm

On a Windows based server, you would use MS Access for the database... on a Linux based server, you would use MySQL for the database. I believe you could use PHP for both to make a website searchable database. It might be possible to modify an existing MySQL/PHP script to fit.

I know MS Access reasonably well and have dabbled in MySQL and PHP, but was never able to get a searchable data base running on a website. Long story!

However, it could be set up in such a way that anyone could go in and and submit solutions. I think that might work fairly well in that it would be kind of fun to submit the info and see it show up in the database, so it would grow relatively quickly.

With a few people willing to spend some time on grabbing info from old posts, you could fill in a lot of holes.

Now that I'm thinking about it... it might also be possible to use an "album" type program that allows viewers to add pictures and descriptions. In this case the pictures would be of levels, and the description under the picture would be the solution. They could be sorted into folders by authorname, and further sorted by level if you wanted.

I'm thinking in particular of an album program I've tried that worked very well called album.pl (free) which can be seen here: http://dev.bobbitt.ca/album/. This is a fully customizable album, although I'm not very good at customizing, and can be integrated with forums.

There is another here called Gallery (also free): http://gallery.menalto.com/index.php. This one also seems very customizable and possibly more user friendly.

Bearsland · Post by **Bearsland** » Sat May 07, 2005 1:23 am

Midnight Synergy wrote:...I'm not planning on doing this myself...

You lazy git!!!

To be honest, I'm also with Popo and Ol' Gramma on this. It's way too much work and not really necessary. I've never used hints or tips or ask for solutions; I prefer to play the game as it is: A puzzle to be worked out... by me!!!

Aren't I great??!!

If you do get stuck, yes, you can ask on here. More personal. much more friendly than just consulting a database. And... half the level designer's time isn't wasted having to provide the answers along with the puzzle. Bad idea! (but that's just me)

popo · Post by **popo** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:33 am

Old Bear wrote:You lazy git!!!

Lillian · Post by **Lillian** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:17 am

Bearsland wrote:
Aren't I great??!!

Errrr - NO!

As a level creator, there is no way I would have the time to write out a full "walkthrough" or solution to any of my levels - sorry! It takes long enough to come up with a level idea, then create it, then have time to play everyone else's levels, read the forum, answer/write pm's!

Anyone who wants help/hints - just ask me either on the forum or via pm - or just ask anyone else to help if I am not around. Or if people like the idea of a solution being submitted along with the level - then the author should feel free to do so if they prefer.

Sorry - but I just don't have the time for that. Plus I agree with Bear - the forum is a friendly place for people to "chat" with one another. This may get lost if the forum became so "clinical".

Liz Mayhew · Post by **Liz Mayhew** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:17 pm

As a maker of far fewer levels, I have to agree with Lillie. It does take a long time to write solutions.

Another problem is with assigning difficulty to levels. Some things I've made which I think are very easy, some players find difficult and vice versa.

That's my two pennyworth.

Liz

loof101 · Post by **loof101** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:32 pm

Liz Mayhew wrote:As a maker of far fewer levels, I have to agree with Lillie. It does take a long time to write solutions.

Another problem is with assigning difficulty to levels. Some things I've made which I think are very easy, some players find difficult and vice versa.

That's my two pennyworth.

Liz

Speaking of this, When I made a level, I started A soloution. It took me 4 days! I have to say I agree with Lillie.

I was paranoid.

Loof 101

Davimad · Post by **Davimad** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:03 pm

I think the most important point has been made here.

If all the solutions were readily available, we wouldn't have any new members coming in to ask for hints. Isn't that shooting oneself in the foot?
An awful lot of people have asked for help and stayed to have some fun.

I personally would like to see the forum growing in numbers, who would have thought we would reach 900+ in such a short time?

I can remember when the forum had a grand total of 23 members, I became the 24th and was a bit shy about posting. Who laughed???

Changed days eh?

Liz Mayhew · Post by **Liz Mayhew** » Sun May 08, 2005 8:01 am

Davimad wrote: I can remember when the forum had a grand total of 23 members, I became the 24th and was a bit shy about posting.

Times certainly do change Maureen. I first joined in July 2004, but I was too shy to post anything. I just looked at hints on things I was stuck with. It took me till November to actually dive in - best thing I did in ages.

So yes, if hints/solutions were there all the time fewer people would get on the forum.

Liz

Davimad · Post by **Davimad** » Sun May 08, 2005 12:21 pm

I remember seeing your name often enough Liz, always wondered when you'd get around to posting.

I looked at other forums but they didn't appeal to me, too much swearing and crudeness for my liking. I couldn't understand what half of them were saying, for long enough I thought 'lol' meant 'lots of love'.

Long may this forum reign. YAY!

Bearsland · Post by **Bearsland** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:34 pm

Patrick,

Let me tell you why this 'solutions database' is a non-starter idea.

The other day someone commented that the board had 900 members. The current figure is 956.

Of this 956, 65 have made 1 post. More worrying should be the fact that 656 have made no posts; that's none, as in zero, zilch, nada, nothing.

Why did they join? Probably because only by joining can they see pictures made in posts by helpful members offering solutions to levels. I'm assuming they only visited in the first place to get help for a level.

If a solutions database is created, whether it be from old posts or from designers submitting them, a lot of people will then have no reason to join; they can simply go to the database and get the info they need. We won't even get a 'Hello', never mind a 'Thanks' or a 'Hey, great level!'. This forum will consist solely of the diehards we have here now and maybe one or two who decide to join the fun.

The board, I fear, will slowly stagnate and die.

I hope not, but I am looking from a 'worst case' scenario.

Leave the board as it is, it's fine.

My tuppence worth. Feel free to agree or disagree, guys.

Bear

Davimad · Post by **Davimad** » Mon May 09, 2005 10:41 pm

Agree totally with this statement OB, you have put it more eloquently than I did but the sentiment is the same.

Btw, I did say 900+ members.

Ramonda · Post by **Ramonda** » Tue May 10, 2005 1:27 am

One change that I would like to see is the ability for a person to find all levels that have been created, easily.

I know Mette is doing this and it is wonderful. But her link to her site is buried and a new user wouldn't know where to find it. True, somebody can ask but why make it hard?

And there will possibly be a time when she drifts from the forum and the compilations will no longer take place by her.

It could be as simple as a sticky for the thread where she mentions updates. When she decides she can't support it anymore, then you, Patrick, could take it from there and change where they are found.

I bought a game three years ago for my grandson. There were thousands of custom levels available which helped me decide to buy the game. The forum for the game was quite inactive but had been very active once. It was still there for those who wanted to read it. But most important all of the levels those people made were easily accessible with just a few downloads.

popo · Post by **popo** » Tue May 10, 2005 6:57 am

I agree that Mette should have a sticky thread for her web address, newcomers have no idea that it exists, and downloading every level from here is a daunting thought.

On the subject of the other website, perhaps that could be accessible only from the forum so people would still have to join to get to it.

mette · Post by **mette** » Tue May 10, 2005 10:18 am

Thanks for your kind words Ramonda and Popo. I would be honored to have my web adress posted as a sticky thread

I can't predict the future, but I have no plans of leaving the forum

or stopping to update my web site. I know I haven't been very active the last couple of weeks, but I'm still downloading all the levels/models/houses and reading all the posts. In another week or two (when I'm done reading my new Stephen King books) I'll be as active as ever.

Mette

Post by **Midnight Synergy** » Wed May 11, 2005 4:11 pm

Re-post from another thread:

This thread and the other "possible future of the forum" threads have some overlap, so I'll submit a whole bunch of related thoughts here.

1. How about a poll where everyone submits their favourite user made levels so far. We'd make up several categories (including kids levels, but also other categories) and everyone would submit their top three levels (if applicable, or more) for each category. I'd compile the results and have a sticky thread at the top with the top 10 levels in each category. Every month or so I'd update to take new votes into account - newcomers looking for something specific can find it much more easily, and then get the taste for hunting down more of the same in the vast library of levels. This wouldn't be a very scientific approach, so I wouldn't worry too much about questions like "what if a level belongs to more than one category", etc. Everyone would just make their personal choice.

2. About the future of the forum - I agree that creating solutions for each level would be way to much work, and not very fun work either. Mette's website is great, and I can certainly make that link Sticky. In fact, I'm thinking of making some raw materials available to people (artwork, etc) in case they wish to create similar types of "fan sites" (for lack of a better word). My concern with these level collection sites, however, is that they discourage people registering - right now users have to register in order to download levels. Most people do only that - but once you are registered it's much easier to see a post, reply and comment - and voila we have a new active member.

Edit: Mette, your other comment about making the URL a jpg is a possibility. I'll think about that.

3. Random thought - since the "classic" RTW version is hardly used anymore, what would people think about combining the classic and deluxe forums (also, newcomers don't know what "classic" is, and might be confused by that).

Bearsland · Post by **Bearsland** » Wed May 11, 2005 4:27 pm

Midnight Synergy wrote:
Edit: Mette, your other comment about making the URL a jpg is a possibility. I'll think about that.

Of course it's a possibility, here you go.

Post by **Midnight Synergy** » Wed May 11, 2005 4:52 pm

Bearsland wrote:
Midnight Synergy wrote:

Of course it's a possibility, here you go.
I meant think about what other options would be available - or even if my concern is a valid concern.

Bearsland · Post by **Bearsland** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:00 pm

Midnight Synergy wrote:
Bearsland wrote:
Of course it's a possibility, here you go.
I meant think about what other options would be available - or even if my concern is a valid concern.

Way to go, Patrick.

You've just won today's Wonderland 'Non Sequitur' Award for a superbly meaningless post having nothing to do with my quoted post.

Bear

Edit: Just figured out what your post meant.

You can still keep the award, though.

Post by **Midnight Synergy** » Wed May 11, 2005 6:59 pm

Bearsland wrote: Edit: Just figured out what your post meant. You can still keep the award, though.

Yeay! I'd like to thank the academy and my parents! Perhaps it is more of an award for a "body of work" - i.e. my collection of rambling pointless posts?

ann3120 · Post by **ann3120** » Wed May 11, 2005 7:02 pm

Liz Mayhew wrote:Times certainly do change Maureen. I first joined in July 2004, but I was too shy to post anything. I just looked at hints on things I was stuck with. It took me till November to actually dive in - best thing I did in ages.

So yes, if hints/solutions were there all the time fewer people would get on the forum.

Same here Liz. I was much too shy. I think I started playing in Oct/Nov of 2003, joined the board in April 2004, but didn't make my first post until September. . . . . and when I'd only made a few, who'd have thought that I'd ever get to over 200, going on 300 ! ! ! !

I agree with all the comments regarding the possibility of losing the addition of new members. Reading all the new posts is as much, and often even more fun than playing, and we've all made such wonderful friends here. We shouldn't deny others of the finding the same pleasure.

Yes, there are times that I wish I could find the solution I need, and often the answer isn't posted anywhere, and some levels I give up in frustration - but all this is far out weighed by the heady feeling of satisfaction, when suddenly the

goes on, or your fingers make just the right moves, and you know you've got it solved.

Everyone's forgiven, and all is right with the world.