WA MOFI Difficulty Discussion

popo · Post by **popo** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:30 am

Most of its value is as a game that you can play.

Yes I agree with that, but at the time I couldn't play it.

I suspect what you really want is the satisfaction of completing something.

Yes to this too, but at the time I had no way of completing it, without cheating.

I had reached a point where I couldn't do any of the levels required to get any further, I didn't have the option of leaving those I found frustrating and doing others, they were all too hard in one way or another. I had left one earlier on in the game that I couldn't do, but didn't need in order to move on so I know what you're talking about, but when I reached the pirate camp I had to cheat two levels (any two would have done as I couldn't do any of them) to get the lock pick so I could get the glyph to move on. If I hadn't cheated those levels I would have been stuck there forever until someone felt sorry for me and gave me a walkthrough.

I don't mind scratching my head over puzzles for days on end. I'll often wake up in the night thinking about it. What I don't like is when I have worked everything out and I still can't do it because I just can't move fast enough. I don't mean moving my stinker, I mean actually moving my hand. For instance, one thing I find hard is getting in place, activating my glove, using my glove, deactivating it and moving again in quick succession. Even though it just a case of left click, right click, left click etc. I have arthritis and find it hard to do quickly. Therefore, in The Fuse, I can't do all the things quickly enough to get to the stinker before he gets killed, and no matter what help I have I will never be able to do it in time. This is what I meant by there being no leeway for slower players.

Also, I don't want to finish the game in a few days. I want it to last me a while, but if the only reason it's lasting me a while is because I can't do it then it's not fun is it? I also wonder why there seems to be a reluctance to make some proper solutions. With the classic Wonderland games there were solutions available from the outset. I worked on Secret Worlds and we were asked to make solutions when we made levels so they could be posted ready for the game coming out. Why is it any different with MOFI? When WA was released, people started making solutions almost immediately, and posted screenshots to help people out. That seems to be a criminal offence with MOFI. Perhaps more help will be available as more people get further on in the game, but for those of you out there who have got further, without cheating, the help doesn't seem very forthcoming.

I know I sound like I'm just whingeing, and maybe I am, but I am old and crotchety after all.

benemily · Post by **benemily** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:38 am

benemily wrote:Please Please Please do not make the next version any easier. This game is brilliant. As said we are only two weeks in, and I still look forward to many hours of frustration. I am not an experienced game player, but he is very very dextrous.but admittedly I am an old school gamer who doesn't want to reach the end easily in a few days. This is the most challenging game yet and the most fun I have had in ages! Taking levels out to make an easier game is no different than using the cheat code. Agreed, but having a choice of running through the game in easier mode means you feel the sense of achievement having done all levels without the guilt of CHEATING.
These are just my thoughts, my wife and daughters are very different.

WIFE COMMENTS IN VIOLET. Yes as the wife I would like to say that this is a lovely looking game but as a non dextrous person I can see how to solve the puzzles, I just can't execute them. Our daughter is the same. I don't know how levels are made, but is there no way of keeping all the same levels but slowing down baddies, timers and gates etc for the easier run through?(eg: the fuse, on normal it takes 44 seconds for the fuse to get round, but if there were an easy it would take 50 or something.) I have noticed that a lot of the posts on this thread are from wonderland legends, famous on the forum and even testers?, the fact that even they are having trouble must say something.
If this was the first wonderland we had bought I don't know if it would have inspired us to buy the back catalogue.
Finally, again this is a great game and this is only the wife and daughters opinion.

chrise · Post by **chrise** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:55 pm

Well, I do understand that it will just be frustrating if you are simply not able to control it fast enough, and perhaps there is something in the idea of providing an option to adjust the speed at which the game runs. The speed of your character would have to be adjusted in line with everything else, but this would still avoid the problem of you just not being able to click fast enough. I think it would be handy to also have a similar option to speed it up, mainly for use when travelling long distances in the hub.

As for solutions, I don't know if there is anything different about MOFI, but I do think it is better that they are not provided initially. They should be provided in due course, but I think having them around to begin with does give too much temptation to everyone to just look at them without having a go themselves. Similarly, it was felt that it would be best if people who had been involved in the testing refrained from giving help at first.

wonderlandlover · Post by **wonderlandlover** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:43 pm

I haven't been able to buy the game, yet, but to just comment on the difficulty level: I do fall on the "I'd rather have a little more difficult" spectrum.

I remember doing Secret Worlds. I got to the last level (had to use the spoilers for a few of the harder levels), and had to give up. I quit for months, but then for some reason when I came back, it all clicked for me. It was so satisfying getting it myself.

I like the thought of a game taking more than a few days. I think it's great that the difficulty level is stepped up in the sequel. I guess it depends what a person is looking for in a game. I don't envy the task of finding a happy medium, because you don't want to lose fans.

Another thought, sometimes when I play a game, even if it's a little easier, when there are alot more levels to increase the playing time, I like that, too.

Loirae · Post by **Loirae** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:23 pm

Oh, Patrick, maybe you can add a new smiley who is pulling out his hair. I think it would quickly become one of the most used smilieies on the forum.

These spring to mind:

Ok, didn't add to the discussion at all, but made me feel better.

paidi21 · Post by **paidi21** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:23 am

Maybe these one could be added:

wish you all the best in the new year

Regards Alex

iancull · Post by **iancull** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:21 pm

I've reached "into the deep dark cave", no cheating but some essential hints from the forum ... but now, I feel it's time to abandon the game!

Hints suggest putting crabs in certain places, which I can't figure how to achieve - but even then, the next room is worse still and set up in a way which allows little chance to explore; a particular movement makes things happen which result in death

Right now, I'm sad and disappointed with my in-ability to solve these later levels - and that's not the feeling I want out of games I play.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:07 am

iancull wrote:Right now, I'm sad and disappointed with my in-ability to solve these later levels - and that's not the feeling I want out of games I play.

This is exactly the same thing that I'm encountering now - Either the motions I need to make are too fast for me, or I can't find the right angle for a puzzle.

Now, I didn't pay for MoFI (tester), but I still want to be able to enjoy the game to the extent where in the end two of the most used keys are NOT

CTRL and F12

The game is challenging, I'll give it that - But it's not as fun as the first WA was for me, for the simple reason that I only had to cheat on a select few stages on WA, which I could properly beat 2nd time through - But here, I've lost count of how many times I've had to use the cheat out of confusion.

pakuehn1 · Post by **pakuehn1** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:32 am

Dear Midnight Synergy,

I, for one, would like to be able to pick an easy or difficult level. Getting accustomed to the game on the easy level would better prepare me for attempting the more difficult level. My response time is just not what it used to be.

Thanks for listening.

paidi21 · Post by **paidi21** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:00 am

I still would like to hear from MS any comments about my question referring to the speed of MOFI on differents PC's. Does really everbody have the same "speed base"? Thinking of the Level "The Fuse" it would not be very nice if the equipment you have might influence if you can solve a level at all.

Regards Alex

benemily · Post by **benemily** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:40 am

@paid
The fuse takes 44 seconds from first shot to last barrel blowing on my laptop, winxp sp3, how long does it take on yours as that will show if yours is faster.
As patrick has admitted The Fuse is one of the toughest for speed, there is a lot of help on it now though on it's level solutions post.

Mrs benemily.

paidi21 · Post by **paidi21** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:47 am

@ benemily:
I know, i had solved this leves. It also takes 44 seconds on my computer (WinXP SP3, Intel Q6600 2.4 GHz, Nvidia Geforce 8600Gt 256 MB)

Regards Alex

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:32 pm

Digging up an old argument:

True, but I can't remember any part where it was almost entirely like that for one whole world.

Wonderland, World 4 "Halls of the Undermountain"
There are nine levels in that world, and SEVEN of them require being extremely quick!
Though you could of course argue that TOW doesn't count, since the "worlds" of TOW and RTW contain a lot less levels...

P.S. Have *just* completed "Blast Through" -- hardest level out of the bunch.

Guinevere · Post by **Guinevere** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:22 pm

Probably as with most people, I have mixed feelings here.

I'd agree that it shouldn't be so easy you can fly through - and as a result of the (ahem) trickiness of some of the leves, I am also experiencing, for the first time, the community spirit that is apparent amongst a hardcore of the contributors here as we move through the levels, and which is adding a whole new aspect to the game. Personally I am not in favour of the cheat code as a rule and, whilst I can sympathise with some people's use of it for the odd level (the sleight of hand issues are an obvious one), there are certain forum contributors whose use and blatant display thereof is an extreme irritation for me as a traditionalist.

However, it must be difficult as a developer to judge when to draw the line and prevent the game being so difficult that you get to the point where you want to give up and go elsewhere, so I can understand why it might have come about.

That said, one of my biggest frustrations is that you can only save your overall progress, not progress in individual levels if you're looking at more than one at a time. I like to have a go at one level, if I don't crack it, go off elsewhere, etc, etc, until I find inspiration, which frequently comes from other levels. However, if I've done a hard bit in one level (sometimes by luck, not judgement!), but not completed it, and I can't then then go off elsewhere and complete another level without having to start the original level from scratch.

I'm sure it thows up some horrible programming/development issues (assuming what I've said makes sense to anyone else ...

), but I think (still mulling it!) I'd rather do that than have a selection of difficulty levels, which at the end of the day are implicit in the game as you move from area to area. I guess it's a sort of extension of the principle of moving into a new area, and being able to access several new levels after passing a certain point, rather than being restricted to a purely linear path through the game.

But apart from wanting to throw the PC out of the window, I think I'm enjoying MOFI ....

popo · Post by **popo** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:39 pm

I'm enjoying it again now I've got into the Ice Fort (or whatever it's called). The levels in there are a lot more puzzle orientated. The one good thing about this game is that you can go back and replay any levels you felt you had to cheat on, like I did a few days ago. And if you're completely stuck the cheat code is a godsend. I wouldn't want to cheat my way to the end though. I don't want to see the end until I've earned it.

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:02 pm

Muzozavr wrote:Digging up an old argument:
True, but I can't remember any part where it was almost entirely like that for one whole world.
Wonderland, World 4 "Halls of the Undermountain"
There are nine levels in that world, and SEVEN of them require being extremely quick!
Though you could of course argue that TOW doesn't count, since the "worlds" of TOW and RTW contain a lot less levels...

P.S. Have *just* completed "Blast Through" -- hardest level out of the bunch.

I can't remember that world at the moment, probably cuz I haven't played TOW in ages, so I can't argue with that

sewel5 · Post by **sewel5** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:06 am

Midnight Synergy wrote:(yes, there are lots of extra stars to be found even after the main game is over).

What do you mean by the 'main game'? Is it after the level "At the end of all" or before it?

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:00 pm

sewel5 wrote:
Midnight Synergy wrote:(yes, there are lots of extra stars to be found even after the main game is over).
What do you mean by the 'main game'? Is it after the level "At the end of all" or before it?

I'm guessing he means after the story, and I got one thing to say about it.

You should try to go after the extras before playing At The End Of It All, because completing it puts you back at the main menu of the game.

popo · Post by **popo** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:47 pm

How do you get back in to play anything else then?

benemily · Post by **benemily** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:15 pm

Save as you think you're nearing the end of "at the end of it all" then you can see the end and then reload the level and abort. We've seen the end and are now going nuts at the extras

Mrs benemily

wonderlandlover · Post by **wonderlandlover** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:55 pm

Well, now that I've had a chance to play the game, I must say there are some absolutely evil levels in this game.

EVIL!!

#1 hard for me was "Don't Leave Me Behind". I haven't used a cheat code, yet, but that just about had me searching it out. I would almost say this is the hardest Wonderland game so far.

Extremely satisfying to finish the levels, but I need to up my blood pressure medicine now.

Off to try to beat "Clear the Way".

iancull · Post by **iancull** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:00 pm

I found "clear the way" much worse than "don't leave me behind"!

Agreed, it is satisfying when the level is finally cracked - but disappointing to get nowhere for literally days. Like you, I don't want to "cheat" a level ...

Qloof234 · Post by **Qloof234** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:18 am

benemily wrote:Save as you think you're nearing the end of "at the end of it all" then you can see the end and then reload the level and abort. We've seen the end and are now going nuts at the extras
Mrs benemily

I hate to disagree, but it's best to save before the level, because at one point (last room), you can't abort or restart the adventure (which probably means it's a hub area)

On to difficulty - actually, surprisingly, the last level is pretty easy - you have to move fast, but nothing insane.

For me at least - and I'm not even doing it right, which is why it's like that for me

benemily · Post by **benemily** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:32 am

I hate to disagree, but it's best to save before the level, because at one point (last room), you can't abort or restart the adventure (which probably means it's a hub area)

Sorry, you're right, thats because benemily played this level not me Mrs benemily and I didn't realise that you couldn't abort nearer the end.

popo · Post by **popo** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:33 am

Going off at a tangent....

I've just started floinging back to redo some levels that I skipped (cheated

), and also to see if I get get more points by doing some levels quicker (I gained about 100 extra points while doing the video for Memory Aid by doing it faster).

Anyway, there are a few levels where there are no coins or gems to collect and all you're fighting for is the star. I have done some of these a little faster and gained a few points, BUT cheating them gives you hundreds more points, usually a total of 960.

This can't be right can it? Surely you shouldn't get more points for cheating than you do for puzzling over, and struggling with, a level.

chrise · Post by **chrise** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:44 am

I suspect this may be because a component in the score comes from how long the solution takes, with shorter considered better - and this is applied even when the cheat is used, which typically gives very quick completion.

It would probably be best if the cheat did not award you any points for the level, but this may be tricky from a technical point of view.

popo · Post by **popo** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:02 am

Surely a simple If/Then would ensure that If Ctrl/F12 was pressed Then points = 0. (Talking from way back when I could program the C64 in Basic

)

AJQZC · Post by **AJQZC** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:27 pm

Yes, I agree. It's not worth having that many points if you cheated.

Muzozavr · Post by **Muzozavr** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:18 am

Just watched "The Fuse" solution from MS: I want this game.

This does look harder than all other Wonderland games, but come on, it's not Battletoads, is it?

(I still haven't managed to best Battletoads just yet...

)

mqdar · Post by **mqdar** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:29 pm

Muzozavr wrote:Just watched "The Fuse" solution from MS: I want this game. This does look harder than all other Wonderland games, but come on, it's not Battletoads, is it? (I still haven't managed to best Battletoads just yet... )

Yes, MOFI is a lot harder than any other Wonderland game. I've used the cheat once (on one of my levels), and got help on two. So that doesn't make it too hard, does it?

Does it?

chrise wrote:It would probably be best if the cheat did not award you any points for the level, but this may be tricky from a technical point of view.

Nah, it's easy! In Qbasic, you'd just do something like this: (The code is a little bit wrong in the first line, and that's because I can't be bothered looking at the key codes right now)

Code: Select all

ON KEY Ctrl + F12 GOSUB UseCheat

UseCheat&#58;
WinPoints = 0
FinishLevel
RETURN