Transparent objects - Help

[popo]

Does anyone know how to make models look transparent in RTW. I've got a model of a lavalamp that looks great in Milkshape, but I can't get the glass to look transparent in the game. See pics below.

If I move the transparency slider about so the glass looks more or less transparent, it just goes from grey to white in the game but still looks solid.

There must be a way to do this. I think Midnight Synergy should give some tips on how to get things looking right in RTW as all the tutorials are about getting things right in Milkshape, but things that look right in Milkshape don't always look right in the game.

Any help would be appreciated.

I'm getting on quite well with Milkshape in general, I've learned to merge models, and to squish and stretch, and to 'reverse vertex order' on some faces that weren't showing up at all (perhaps I should try that with the lamp). But only Midnight Synergy can help when it comes to the game. So how about it Patrick?

PS I don't suppose it's possible to use animated models in the game, is it? Or am I asking for the moon on a stick?

[LinkyNStoof]

Sorry, I already asked Patrick about this back when you released the pool and I wanted to try making the water in your pool transparent.

Transparency information for individual surfaces can definitely be adjusted and stored in the 3DS files (both Milkshape and AC3D allows you to set a material's transparency). However, Wonderland currently ignores this information when loading and rendering custom models, which is why you're not seeing the effect even though you see it in Milkshape/AC3D.

I don't know if Patrick will plan on adding this feature when the patch is released...I asked but he hasn't answered and maybe he just doesn't want to commit to an answer at this point.
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As for animated models, isn't plain old stationary models enough work for you already?

[popo]

As far as the transparency goes all I can say is 'Oh, poo!'

And I only wanted to know about animation cos I've got some animals that are animated. I don't know how to transfer it to Wonderland though cos the joints aren't oriented for Wonderland and I don't know how to change them.

I'm still having trouble with textures on some models, they just refuse to show up in the game although I can see them in Milkshape.

[Midnight Synergy]

Sorry Linky - I thought I had replied.

Transparancy won't be an option in the future - it is simply not a possibility with the current bones of the Wonderland engine.

Maybe in the next game (I'm amazed at how quickly foks have picked up on doing Advanced levels - messing around with 3d programs, etc.!!! I'll keep that in mind for the next project, trying to design it from the start for maximal customizability)

[LinkyNStoof]

And I only wanted to know about animation cos I've got some animals that are animated. I don't know how to transfer it to Wonderland though cos the joints aren't oriented for Wonderland and I don't know how to change them.

I don't know how useful this is but it's there for your reference:

http://www.josh.ch/joshch/tutorials/mil ... lcome.html

It's a Milkshape tutorial, and some of it goes into doing animations.

[LinkyNStoof]

I've got a model of a lavalamp that looks great in Milkshape, but I can't get the glass to look transparent in the game.

I have an idea that still allows you to salvage the lavalamp, although it won't look quite as great as it originally is.

I'm thinking of replacing the transparent cone-shaped cover with a series of thin spooks, that way you can still see into the inside of the lamp at the spaces between spooks. (Hope my explanation isn't too confusing, again easier if I can draw it out.)

If you don't think you'd up to doing that yourself, send me the relevant files and I'll try playing around with it and see what I can do. No guarantees though.

[LinkyNStoof]

Another possibility for salvaging the lava lamp:

Reduce the transparency on the cover such that you can still see/make out the flames inside thru the cover, but cannot see very well behind the lavalamp. Then make a screenshot of what you see in Milkshape, cut out the lamp part, and apply that as a skin on the cover.

Again, if you wish you can send me your files and I'll take a shot at it.

[LinkyNStoof]

Sorry Linky - I thought I had replied.

Transparancy won't be an option in the future - it is simply not a possibility with the current bones of the Wonderland engine.

Maybe in the next game (I'm amazed at how quickly foks have picked up on doing Advanced levels - messing around with 3d programs, etc.!!! I'll keep that in mind for the next project, trying to design it from the start for maximal customizability)

Oh yeah, one more thing:

Currently Wonderland seems to render the polygons in the models (custom or otherwise) as one-sided polygons. It'd be nice though if you can render them as two-sided polygons instead, at least for the custom models. The reason is, I've found more than a fair share of models from the Internet that implicitly used two-sided polygons, but since Wonderland always render them as one-sided, the effect is that in Wonderland such model as is has all these triangle "holes" scattered throughout the surface. Yes, I can fix that by manually going over the model and flip the normals (ie. reverse vertex order) on the triangle holes, but that's extremely tedious in most cases.

If you can actually make this change for DRTW in an upcoming patch, super. Otherwise, at least keep that in mind for "the next game".

[popo]

I had to 'reverse vertex order' on the waterlily and one of the plants. Very tedious!

As for the lava lamp, I had thought of just deleting the glass part so that the blobs are just floating. It might look a little strange but when it's reduced in size to fit in the game you may not notice it. If that doesn't work I'll try the skin you mentioned. If all else fails I'll let you do that thing with the spokes.


BTW I downloaded those tutorials and when I unzipped the file it said 'no files to extract'

[LinkyNStoof]

I had to 'reverse vertex order' on the waterlily and one of the plants. Very tedious!

It just occurred to me there's a quick way to simulate 2-sided polygons using 1-sided ones, at the expense of doubling the number of polygons. First, you copy the entire object, then you paste the copy back into the workspace, so that now you have two instances of the same object (the original and the copy you just made). Then, with the copy still selected (and make sure the original is not selected), do a reverse vertex order so that it applies to all surfaces on the copy, then move the copy so that it lies on the exact same position as the original.

What this does is, in each position where there's one surface before, now you have two surfaces, and one of them will have the vertices in the correct order. Problem solved! -- I think.

BTW I downloaded those tutorials and when I unzipped the file it said 'no files to extract'

Hmm. Well I haven't tried downloading, because I have one of those "always on" Internet connections so I could just revisit the site whenever I need to, but I can see how other people would want to use the download version.

I can only suggest this: find the pages in the online tutorial that you want, then in Internet Explorer do a add to Favorite Place, and in the window that pops up, click on the "Make available offline", and also rename the favorite page entry text to the lesson name. Now when you're offline, fire up Internet Explorer and get to that page through the favorite place you just created. See if this works, I haven't tested it at all.

[popo]

It just occurred to me there's a quick way to simulate 2-sided polygons using 1-sided ones, at the expense of doubling the number of polygons. First, you copy the entire object, then you paste the copy back into the workspace, so that now you have two instances of the same object (the original and the copy you just made). Then, with the copy still selected (and make sure the original is not selected), do a reverse vertex order so that it applies to all surfaces on the copy, then move the copy so that it lies on the exact same position as the original.

What this does is, in each position where there's one surface before, now you have two surfaces, and one of them will have the vertices in the correct order. Problem solved! -- I think.

That's a good idea, it would have helped enormously with the waterlily as the 'black' bits were scattered over the surface of the pads and all the petals were the wrong way.


I never thought of making the pages available offline, I'll try it.

[Midnight Synergy]

2-sided rendering is unfortunately not an option - you would have to reverse and flip the model "into itself" and hence double the number of polygons as you describe.

Also regarding lighting (your e-mail question): there is very little shading in Wonderland, it is almost set to fullbright - with shading effects primarily done via textures (e.g. Stinky's light to dark transition on the body is actually done via a gradient in the texture). Ambient lighting is set to almost full, with one additional directional light for an extra punch. No per-pixel specular radiant transparency shader-rasters etc. Very low-tech, in that sense. When doing models from scratch (or looking for some on the internet), I would concentrate on those with full bright colours, as anything requiring particular lighting, transparencies, reflection, etc, will likely not show up correctly in Wonderland. This is also not likely to change in future updates - given the current rendering engine it is somewhat out of our control. (just FYI so you don't hope for features in the future that are not possible)

[LinkyNStoof]

hehe thanks Patrick for the information and guidelines, I sure am a whiny one when it comes to custom models eh?

[popo]

I have noticed that there is a light source sort of southwest in the game which does produce shade on the righthand side of models. You notice it more on uniformly coloured surfaces and rounded objects, like Rudolph.

[LinkyNStoof]

I had to 'reverse vertex order' on the waterlily and one of the plants. Very tedious!

It just occurred to me there's a quick way to simulate 2-sided polygons using 1-sided ones, at the expense of doubling the number of polygons.

Unfortunately, I just tested this on some model I'm working on, but it doesn't really quite work as well as I thought. I think the problem is, shading of a surface is done based on the surface's facing direction, as well as those on adjacent surfaces. The problem is that seeing pairs surfaces with opposite facing directions seems to mess up the shading. The end result is that although the triangle holes are now filled in, it's of a slightly different color than the non-holes, and so you can still notice the triangles. I tried a number of things but none really improves the situation.

So this might not be a panacea to the 1-sided/2-sided problem after all. Of course, maybe it'll work for some models (for example, the problem might not be too noticeable on small-size models), but I guess the tedious search-and-flip will still be needed very often.