Kinderland? Fame and Fortune! What do ya think?

[FlashMerlot]

IDEA ...

a) Create a new discussion board called "Kinderland"

b) WE, as a community, build a couple-of-hundered EXTREMELY SIMPLE PUZZLES and post them into the new "Kinderland" discussion board.

c) WE, as a community, ask Midnight Synergy, to assemble and package the Kinder puzzles into a new commercial product targeted at kids ages 4-8. (non-readers or poor readers)

d) WE, donate our puzzle designs to the new Kinder game.

e) Midnight Synergy, donates $1 of every sale to a Children's Charity.

BECAUSE ...

1) We WIN by helping kids charity

2) Midnight Synergy wins with profits

3) We WIN because each puzzle says: "Puzzle donated by Mrs.Jane Doe"

4) We get "rewarded" by good karma for doing something we enjoy doing ... building puzzles!

[FlashMerlot]

The words EXTREMELY SIMPLE PUZZLES means ...

[ol'gramma]

No.
There are plenty of games for kids that age already on the market, and who's to say that puzzles will be appealing to that age group?
My experience is that they like games they can interact with.

If you have the game, you can design all the puzzles you want for your own kids, according to their abilities.

Kids that age should not be spending much time sitting in front of a computer to play anyway, they should be playing with each other.
Just my 2 cents.

O/G

[FlashMerlot]

Wonderland exercises deductive reasoning and logic without placing undue influence upon a child's hand-eye-coordination (or physical limitations)

Wonderland can help paralized (non-reading) children in ways shoot-em-up, blood, guts, and gore ... and "learning" games ... simply cannot help.

Games with a "MIND" benefit for early childhood development are FEW.

I KNOW ... BECAUSE MY 5 year old is one such child. Deductive reasoning skills are IMPORTANT. And I have been looking for such kid's games and they DO NOT EXIST.

[ol'gramma]

If you have a special needs child, then who better to make levels for them, according to their needs, than you?

I do not know of any

"shoot-em-up, blood, guts, and gore"

games written for that age group.

O/G

[Bearsland]

ask Midnight Synergy, to assemble and package the Kinder puzzles into a new commercial product targeted at kids ages 4-8.

That's been done. It was called Wonderland Secret Worlds.

Only kidding folks, really, I am.

On a more serious note; I have to agree totally with Ol'gramma. As a father of an Autistic child with ADHD and serious learning difficulties, I couldn't agree more with her when she says,

If you have a special needs child, then who better to make levels for them, according to their needs, than you?

As for mind games for kids not existing... what nonsense!!! You're not looking hard enough.

There's Dora the Explorer; Winnie the Pooh; Freddi Fish, just to name 3 titles my four year old plays (and my autistic son too). Try a search on Amazon or Google for kids games; there's hundreds out there.

Sorry if any this sounds harsh, but, sadly, I've had to become an expert in this field over the years.

Bear

[laura n.]

I have to agree with old bear, I'm looking at about $500 worth of computer games for my daughter (4 almost 5) Freddi Fish is a GREAT "puzzle" game geared for older tots and pre-K, then of coures there's the entire Jump Start series, Thomas the Tank Engine, Reader Rabbit the list is never ending. Not to sound redundant my daughter sits on my lap and plays wonderland along with me, we take turns and spend some quality time together. And agreeing with ol grandma, I limit Emilys time in front of both the computer and the TV. Outdoors and empty boxes make great play things they worked for me as a kid (age 43) and believe it or not they still work for my daughter.

Laura N.

PS. But I would'nt mind seeing some Kinderland levels for me to do

[Midnight Synergy]

I do know that parents sometimes contact me about specific 'made for kids' levels. I tell them how to search for "kids" on these forums. But the interest is certainly there.

This thread and the other "possible future of the forum" threads have some overlap, so I'll submit a whole bunch of related thoughts here.

1. How about a poll where everyone submits their favourite user made levels so far. We'd make up several categories (including kids levels, but also other categories) and everyone would submit their top three levels (if applicable, or more) for each category. I'd compile the results and have a sticky thread at the top with the top 10 levels in each category. Every month or so I'd update to take new votes into account - newcomers looking for something specific can find it much more easily, and then get the taste for hunting down more of the same in the vast library of levels. This wouldn't be a very scientific approach, so I wouldn't worry too much about questions like "what if a level belongs to more than one category", etc. Everyone would just make their personal choice.

2. About the future of the forum - I agree that creating solutions for each level would be way to much work, and not very fun work either. Mette's website is great, and I can certainly make that link Sticky. In fact, I'm thinking of making some raw materials available to people (artwork, etc) in case they wish to create similar types of "fan sites" (for lack of a better word). My concern with these level collection sites, however, is that they discourage people registering - right now users have to register in order to download levels. Most people do only that - but once you are registered it's much easier to see a post, reply and comment - and voila we have a new active member.

3. Random thought - since the "classic" RTW version is hardly used anymore, what would people think about combining the classic and deluxe forums (also, newcomers don't know what "classic" is, and might be confused by that).

[Ramonda]

IDEA ...

a) Create a new discussion board called "Kinderland"


4) We get "rewarded" by good karma for doing something we enjoy doing ... building puzzles!

You get good karma for having a good idea. I don't think it is practical to have a Wonderland game just for kids though. I think RTW Deluxe is just about the most perfect Wonderland game for kids already.

It has hundreds of very easy levels already. It has hundreds of medium kid levels. And there is where it really gets good. As the child ages, there are more levels to challenge him/her. And there will be more kid levels created by you and others who make levels. But there is a Catch 22 if it would be promoted that way because there would be less buyers. The competition in children's games is big money and there are many available as has been mentioned. I have a large collection myself.

What I would like though for others like you, is a location where they can all be downloaded in one or two steps. My search for Kid's games the other day came up with pathetic results. It doesn't begin to find them all. I've downloaded every kids' level there is and not every post said it was for a kid, using that word. They used the word easy or very easy. Some that were specified for kids were more for the preteen. Not that that was bad because I have grandkids of different ages. Not to mention they will grow into them.

As it happens I didn't keep all of them myself so I can't even donate the bundle to my own cause I can zip what I do have though and email them to you if you wish. And many of those that I deleted I can probably direct you to the creator in the forum.

I know there are some made that are as easy as you show. Others will be a little harder but with you watching and possibly helping, your child will catch on.

[mette]

Mette's website is great...

Thanks

My concern with these level collection sites, however, is that they discourage people registering - right now users have to register in order to download levels.

Very good point Patrick. Is it possible to make a post that only registered users can read? Or perhaps put the web adress in an attached .jpg file. That way only registered users will be able to see it, right?

3. Random thought - since the "classic" RTW version is hardly used anymore, what would people think about combining the classic and deluxe forums (also, newcomers don't know what "classic" is, and might be confused by that).

I think that's an excellent idea. Several new users seem to think the Classic Forum is for questions about the Classic Levels from RTWD. When they post their questions in that forum, they tend to be overlooked, and that's a shame in my opinion.

Mette

[FlashMerlot]

Midnight Synergy would not get a profit tool for free. It will take significant work. For example, I would also suggest the between-levels navigation UI needs work to accomodate non-readers. For example, "Exit to Windows" menu item should be an icon showing (maybe) a "red arrow exiting a doorway". Bottomline, the UI encapsulating the puzzles, should be re-thunk into pictures for non-readers.

There are about a dozen UI improvements I would suggest. Like another, a step-on puzzle hint should have an ability to play-back a recorded message such that "reading" the message is not necessary.

I beleve this project could be a win-win success. To that end, I would be willing to commit to paying for 1,000 CDs to be duplicated and donated free to elementary schools around the nation. (My estimate is about $1,400). That's how much "I" beleive this project is a great idea.

[FlashMerlot]

Let me toss a "little" light on WHY I feel so good about this project.

1) I have a "little" software marketing and sales experience in my past. Director of Marketing and Sales for Phillipe Kahn at Borland. (Remember Turbo pascal, Sidekick). Before anyone had ever heard of Intuit, I advised them how to penetrate a new marketplace. You think they did ok following my advice? I have had success marketing a dozen+ commercial software products. (http://qpop.com/VolkingResume.doc)

2) I know the "hard-work" is already done. Midnight Synergy already has the graphics engine and ARCHITECTURE DESIGN working, tested, and deployed! A huge leap forward. I know how much Midnight Synergy brings to the table because I've done a "little" windows based internet driven graphics development myself. Here's source code to a project I started about 8 months ago then got bored with. You'll need Microsoft Visual Studio .NET 2003 (C#) to run (http://qpop.com/rsp.zip - 1.2mb) or at least Microsoft Word to read the design doc. (run RokSizPap.sln in VS2003)

Bottom line ... I have a "little" knowledge, experience, insight, and skill which suggest Kinderland could be a "little" success.

[Bearsland]

There are about a dozen UI improvements I would suggest.

Do you mean in the Wonderland games? If you do, then I suggest you are being extremely rude and arrogant. These games have been on the markt for a couple of years now. People, members of this forum, have contributed over 2500 custom levels for all to play. I haven't heard any of them suggest the UI needed improving.

Bottom line ... I have a "little" knowledge, experience, insight, and skill which suggest Kinderland could be a "little" success.

Go write it yourself then.

Bear

btw. Did you read any of the posts above before getting your trumpet out again? I reckon you didn't.

[majic1]

I have been reading all of this in somewhat disbelief! I am reluctant to reply on this type of thread, but I have to say THANKS for your comments, BEAR! I couldn't agree with you more!

[FlashMerlot]

Bear - I did not mean to blaspheme nor disparage Wonderland in its current incarnation. I was merely making a professional observation that, "If a new market segment was to be tapped" then said market segment may require a bit of UI tweaking for maximum penetration success.

Chill out ... Wonderland is fantastic for it's current target market!

[FlashMerlot]

BTW - I have read every word of every post in this thread. My comments stand as stated.

[ol'gramma]

If you are applying for a job, then I suggest you apply by email or PM.
Your resume will be evaluated by qualified people.
We have already given our opinion on your project.
I am sure that you are just trying to help your child, and I applaud you for that. However, this is not the right venue.

O/G

[Midnight Synergy]

This post has gotten a bit sour in tone, so I'll close it... but first I'll get my two cents in.

Ah, the power of being admin.


Thanks for the suggestions, FlashMerlot, and thanks everyone else for your opinons as well. I'm a little surprised at the negative reaction toward the suggestions - you guys are even more protective of Wonderland than me.

I do welcome such suggestions though, and do receive them via e-mail on occasion. Secret Worlds is most likely the last of the Wonderland series (I already said this after "Deluxe", though), and even though I'm sure Stinky & the gang will return, the next game will probably be different - if not in spirit then certainly in execution/control/etc.

What direction could this go? I don't know yet - I do have a number of ideas (and might do a non-Wonderland game in the meantime to give these ideas enough time to grow and flourish).

Kinderland is certainly one idea - although it is unlikely to come about in the form suggested (i.e. taking and re-writing the UI etc in Wonderland). I know the surrounding interface isn't the best, and that voice-acting would help a lot for younger children. There are some other issues though, such as the game's keyboard controls, that are much tougher to deal with (I've tried several mouse support options, and they really didn't fit the gameplay).

So I think a "Kinderland" in general is a really good idea, but I also think it would need to be rewritten from the ground up (excluding graphics and sound routines, of course) and would end up being a fairly major effort. Is this a likely next project/direction for Wonderland? Probably not, I prefer using that time to make games for a range of players and ages. However, I also think that constructive criticism about the interface above does help me in the design process - e.g. making the next game easier to adapt into different age and ability groups (with a special "so hard your brain will fry" mode just for Bear, Malc, and Mette!).

Having said all that, there's it the possibility you'll see a Wonderland-style game geared more toward children by the end of the year - but I can't say anything more about it. So don't even ask.

I'm closing this thread, but also moving my comments above to the forum suggestion thread. Would still like to know what people think of these ideas, and other ideas.

Peace.