Good puzzle games besides Wonderland
Moderators: ~xpr'd~, tyteen4a03, Stinky, Emerald141, Qloof234, jdl
-
StinkerSquad01
- Rainbow AllStar
- Posts: 4251
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:39 am
Good puzzle games besides Wonderland
Here's one, wait scratch that (man wheres strike-through when you need it?), a whole series!
Try SubTerra and Bricks.
The stage design.
First, for a puzzle game, there are surprisingly many action-only levels where you basically outrun the enemies. Doing it a few times is interesting. Doing it WITHIN a puzzle level is interesting. Repeating the same thing as many times as in Chip's Challenge is BORING.
Second, for a puzzle game there's a surprising amount of TRIAL-AND-ERROR -- and boring trial-and-error at that. Even otherwise good puzzles often have a grand amount of fake walls, making them more annoying than interesting. Some of the less interesting levels are literally mazes with fake walls PLASTERED all over them. Blocks can have dangers under them, killing you instantly. (Yes, I know about the Lynx version and block slapping, shut up, it was an exploit and wasn't even intended by the designers. Not to mention, it's not possible to do on the MS version)
And the worst thing is, those trial-and-error elements are depressingly repetitive. I actually LIKED I Wanna Be The Guy and only stopped playing when it became totally impossible for me. But it was fun, action games receive the trial-and-error treatment better than puzzle games, and the traps were creative enough to keep you interested.
There are also levels where the inexcusably small field of view is abused against you to hide what's on the other side (the only time it was well used was in "Totally Unfair" which was awesome... though very very difficult to understand)
Third, mazes. Too many of them. A few were good, but most weren't. Too many levels like "SCAVENGER HUNT" are boring.
Fourth, the force floor mazes. In a turn-based game those would've been ridiculously awesome. Unfortunately, Chip's Challenge is real-time, and real-time force floor maze require attention and care to be interesting puzzles. Alas, attention and care was not there, thus it turns into an action level with tons of chances and very small timing window for each chance. The result requires more luck than skill.
Fifth, the difficulty disbalance. The difficulty curve is absolutely EVERYWHERE after a certain point -- if you're playing it without a guide, the wacky positioning of difficult levels makes the game incredibly frustrating to play.
The field of view. It's inexcusably small. I know, I know, done on a portable console with a small screen first, well used in "Totally Unfair" and all that. Screw it. All puzzle games are (or should be) about PLANNING and thus you NEED a scrolling field as far as you can go, so if you're porting a portable console game on a PC, do us a favor, and extend our field of view.
If you want to keep it small, then either do the thing Wonderland does with it's Shift key, or do like SubTerra and allow us to scroll the screen while the game is paused. Yes, I know, "Totally Unfair" was brilliant, but if the overall game focus shifts in favor of thinking and planning, that level can go out of the game for all I care.
Then there are the generally inane levels that cannot be excused by any design choice. What WAS the idea that gave us the abomination known as "On The Rocks" for stage 33? It has no excuse to be there. There's no puzzle in it whatsoever, it's just a boring test of patience.
Despite all this, the game COULD be potentially tolerable in the original version (well emulated by "Tile World") but the MS version made the controls a pile of suck. In the original version, Chip went with a certain speed and he did it smoothly. In the MS version, he goes INSTANTLY from tile to tile, but between the tiles he has to wait a small amount of time, so the overall speed ends up being the same. That wouldn't be a problem, had it been properly implemented. The problem is that if you hold a button for a touch too long after Chip slides into a tile and let go, he will wait that small amount of time and then SLIDE into the next tile BY HIMSELF, without any command to do so. That makes the timing window for simply stopping unreasonably small, the controls feel slippery, making even the good levels hellishly frustrating.
Sometimes it's OK, but at other times the controls make the game even more of a pain than it already is. Many levels have block puzzles -- some of them are even really good. The problem is that due to the control problems above you can't just push the button and then let go when needed -- you have to TAP the button for EVERY. SINGLE. STEP. Get to "Seeing Stars" and you will see what I mean. It'll drive you nuts. When you combine it with a BAD block-pushing puzzle (such as "On The Rocks", which isn't even a puzzle, but has tons of block-pushing) the result can only be described as inane and frustrating.
I really wanted to like Chip's Challenge, I really did. It was an inspiration for many great games I enjoy and was one of the first of its kind. I tried to play this game an unhealthy amount of times. But no. It doesn't matter who does it first, it only matters who does it right. Chip's Challenge does it wrong.
If you do actually play Chip's Challenge, it's worth it to get to "On The Rocks" but I do recommend you to stop playing after that.
The sad thing is there are a few brillaint levels in the bunch... but they get drowned in the mud.
The above is just my opinion, though, so... yeah. No offence for the fans or for the designers.
No. I may be the only one here who thinks that, but Chip's Challenge sucks. It had an epic set of objects, but wasted it all in so-so stage design and the MS Windows version added control problems that made even the good levels infuriating, so the MS version is double the suck.Qloof234 wrote:Chip's Challenge.
/thread
The stage design.
First, for a puzzle game, there are surprisingly many action-only levels where you basically outrun the enemies. Doing it a few times is interesting. Doing it WITHIN a puzzle level is interesting. Repeating the same thing as many times as in Chip's Challenge is BORING.
Second, for a puzzle game there's a surprising amount of TRIAL-AND-ERROR -- and boring trial-and-error at that. Even otherwise good puzzles often have a grand amount of fake walls, making them more annoying than interesting. Some of the less interesting levels are literally mazes with fake walls PLASTERED all over them. Blocks can have dangers under them, killing you instantly. (Yes, I know about the Lynx version and block slapping, shut up, it was an exploit and wasn't even intended by the designers. Not to mention, it's not possible to do on the MS version)
And the worst thing is, those trial-and-error elements are depressingly repetitive. I actually LIKED I Wanna Be The Guy and only stopped playing when it became totally impossible for me. But it was fun, action games receive the trial-and-error treatment better than puzzle games, and the traps were creative enough to keep you interested.
There are also levels where the inexcusably small field of view is abused against you to hide what's on the other side (the only time it was well used was in "Totally Unfair" which was awesome... though very very difficult to understand)
Third, mazes. Too many of them. A few were good, but most weren't. Too many levels like "SCAVENGER HUNT" are boring.
Fourth, the force floor mazes. In a turn-based game those would've been ridiculously awesome. Unfortunately, Chip's Challenge is real-time, and real-time force floor maze require attention and care to be interesting puzzles. Alas, attention and care was not there, thus it turns into an action level with tons of chances and very small timing window for each chance. The result requires more luck than skill.
Fifth, the difficulty disbalance. The difficulty curve is absolutely EVERYWHERE after a certain point -- if you're playing it without a guide, the wacky positioning of difficult levels makes the game incredibly frustrating to play.
The field of view. It's inexcusably small. I know, I know, done on a portable console with a small screen first, well used in "Totally Unfair" and all that. Screw it. All puzzle games are (or should be) about PLANNING and thus you NEED a scrolling field as far as you can go, so if you're porting a portable console game on a PC, do us a favor, and extend our field of view.
If you want to keep it small, then either do the thing Wonderland does with it's Shift key, or do like SubTerra and allow us to scroll the screen while the game is paused. Yes, I know, "Totally Unfair" was brilliant, but if the overall game focus shifts in favor of thinking and planning, that level can go out of the game for all I care.
Then there are the generally inane levels that cannot be excused by any design choice. What WAS the idea that gave us the abomination known as "On The Rocks" for stage 33? It has no excuse to be there. There's no puzzle in it whatsoever, it's just a boring test of patience.
Despite all this, the game COULD be potentially tolerable in the original version (well emulated by "Tile World") but the MS version made the controls a pile of suck. In the original version, Chip went with a certain speed and he did it smoothly. In the MS version, he goes INSTANTLY from tile to tile, but between the tiles he has to wait a small amount of time, so the overall speed ends up being the same. That wouldn't be a problem, had it been properly implemented. The problem is that if you hold a button for a touch too long after Chip slides into a tile and let go, he will wait that small amount of time and then SLIDE into the next tile BY HIMSELF, without any command to do so. That makes the timing window for simply stopping unreasonably small, the controls feel slippery, making even the good levels hellishly frustrating.
Sometimes it's OK, but at other times the controls make the game even more of a pain than it already is. Many levels have block puzzles -- some of them are even really good. The problem is that due to the control problems above you can't just push the button and then let go when needed -- you have to TAP the button for EVERY. SINGLE. STEP. Get to "Seeing Stars" and you will see what I mean. It'll drive you nuts. When you combine it with a BAD block-pushing puzzle (such as "On The Rocks", which isn't even a puzzle, but has tons of block-pushing) the result can only be described as inane and frustrating.
I really wanted to like Chip's Challenge, I really did. It was an inspiration for many great games I enjoy and was one of the first of its kind. I tried to play this game an unhealthy amount of times. But no. It doesn't matter who does it first, it only matters who does it right. Chip's Challenge does it wrong.
If you do actually play Chip's Challenge, it's worth it to get to "On The Rocks" but I do recommend you to stop playing after that.
The sad thing is there are a few brillaint levels in the bunch... but they get drowned in the mud.
The above is just my opinion, though, so... yeah. No offence for the fans or for the designers.
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
-
boywhoflies
- Rainbow Spirit Chaser
- Posts: 5510
- Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:16 pm
-
StinkerSquad01
- Rainbow AllStar
- Posts: 4251
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:39 am
You mean Professor Fizzlewizzle BWF? It can be found on www.pcpuzzle.com
Not to be confused with this site.
Not to be confused with this site.
-
StinkerSquad01
- Rainbow AllStar
- Posts: 4251
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:39 am
LOL for trimming. But the stage design problems are still there, you have to search for good levelpacks and CCLP2, although much better than CCLP1, is NOT one of them and a few levels of that aren't even playable in Lynx mode.Qloof234 wrote:And that is why I play Tile World on the Lynx rulesetMuzozavr wrote:<Long post>
Rest in peace, Kym. I hardly knew ya.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
Rest in peace, Marinus. A bright star, you were ahead of me on my own tracks of thought. I miss you.
-
boywhoflies
- Rainbow Spirit Chaser
- Posts: 5510
- Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:16 pm
Yeah, and thanks.StinkerSquad01 wrote:You mean Professor Fizzlewizzle BWF? It can be found on www.pcpuzzle.com
Not to be confused with this site.
The original designer was Grubby Game, which has now been bought by Big Fish.StinkerSquad01 wrote:You mean Professor Fizzlewizzle BWF? It can be found on www.pcpuzzle.com
Not to be confused with this site.
i should change my signature to be rude to people who hate pictures of valves
-
Guppy Star
- Rainbow Master
- Posts: 919
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:20 am