Things that don't fit/deserve another topic (anything goes)

[yot yot5]

I respect your opinion, but I would very strongly disagree with you about Elsa - As someone who suffers from both depression and social anxiety, I found Elsa to be incredibly relatable as a character. The kind of mood swings she has ("The cold never bothered me anyway") is something I'm familiar with, for instance.

I see where you're coming from, but I've never really seen her as having "mood swings". They were more like "complete change of character" swings. Remember her mercilessly trying to kill that assassin when she could've easily just left him trapped? That wasn't a "mood swing", that was heartless murder, and I found it impossible to root for Elsa after that.

As for the relationship between the sisters, that's another thing - Shutting people out is a huge red flag for depression. It doesn't mean you don't care for someone - usually the opposite, in fact: You don't want to burden them with yourself and all of your negativity and such.

But Elsa wouldn't have had any negativity if she had just told Anna about herself in the first place! In fact, when we get down to it, all the dilemmas in this movie (the sister's relationship, the eternal winter) can be traced back to the fact that Elsa and her parents chose to keep Anna in the dark for her entire life. This point is never addressed in the movie; in fact, Elsa never apologizes for anything.

The ironic thing is: there isn't really ever any reason to shut Anna out. Why don't the parents just tell Anna, "By the way, your sister has ice powers which nearly killed you, so don't mess around with them!" Anna would still be safe (she would be much safer, in fact, because she'd know to be cautious around her sister) but her life would be considerably less confusing and depressing. Keeping the two sisters away from each other just ended up ruining both their lives.

As for the ice thing at the end... Love trumps all.

I'm all for love thawing the ice. I just don't understand what made the love in this scene any more special than the love Elsa was "apparently" showing Anna by shutting her out for the past fifteen years. I mean, at the start of the movie, we can see that Anna obviously still loves Elsa, and according to most people, the only reason Elsa keeps herself away from Anna is because she loves her so much and wants to keep her safe. Why exactly is that "love" any different from the "love" shown when Anna sacrifices herself?



Once again, I'm not looking for a huge argument here; I'm just voicing my opinion. If Frozen made more sense to you than it did to me... good for you.

[Qloof234]

I see where you're coming from, but I've never really seen her as having "mood swings". They were more like "complete change of character" swings. Remember her mercilessly trying to kill that assassin when she could've easily just left him trapped? That wasn't a "mood swing", that was heartless murder, and I found it impossible to root for Elsa after that.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by "complete change of character", it's not like she looked happy or anything during that scene - she looked desperate. That's an example of what I mean when I refer to emotional outlashes. I'm not saying that justifies it, just explains it.

But Elsa wouldn't have had any negativity if she had just told Anna about herself in the first place!

She almost killed her sister. Whether or not Anna knew about the magic-ice or not, the point is that Elsa would hate herself for it more than anything. Even if Anna knew and said "oh, okay, I forgive you", it's hard to shake off that kind of self-loathing.

In fact, when we get down to it, all the dilemmas in this movie (the sister's relationship, the eternal winter) can be traced back to the fact that Elsa and her parents chose to keep Anna in the dark for her entire life. This point is never addressed in the movie; in fact, Elsa never apologizes for anything.

The depression/anxiety parallels around Elsa are very much intentional. Keeping going with that, it's important for people dealing with either to know that they're not at fault for what they're going through. I felt the point was that Elsa didn't need to apologize for what she'd been going through (I'm not referring to actions like pushing that assassin off the balcony, that's a different story).

The ironic thing is: there isn't really ever any reason to shut Anna out. Why don't the parents just tell Anna, "By the way, your sister has ice powers which nearly killed you, so don't mess around with them!" Anna would still be safe (she would be much safer, in fact, because she'd know to be cautious around her sister) but her life would be considerably less confusing and depressing. Keeping the two sisters away from each other just ended up ruining both their lives.

My impression at first was that, as far as their parents knew, Anna finding out about the magic-ice again would've been enough to kill her. Obviously it wasn't, but even then, Anna's generally shown to be a bit carefree - I figure they'd think it'd be safer to keep her in the dark and avoid risking anything like that happening again (not that it worked, but still)

I'm all for love thawing the ice. I just don't understand what made the love in this scene any more special than the love Elsa was "apparently" showing Anna by shutting her out for the past fifteen years. I mean, at the start of the movie, we can see that Anna obviously still loves Elsa, and according to most people, the only reason Elsa keeps herself away from Anna is because she loves her so much and wants to keep her safe. Why exactly is that "love" any different from the "love" shown when Anna sacrifices herself?

Elsa might not have shown that she loved her sister, that's true - Again, though, as someone with depression, that's something that makes a lot of sense to me. I'd shut out people I love because I didn't want to hurt them, intentionally or otherwise.

I'm pretty sure the point of the ice thawing near the end was that as far as Elsa was concerned, Anna didn't really love her. It's hard to acknowledge genuine feelings from other people when you can't even feel positive about yourself. It was near the end that Elsa learned how much Anna really did love her - and by extension, that Elsa herself was worth it. Learning to feel positive about yourself is a huge "breakthrough" (for lack of a better word) for dealing with depression.

Once again, I'm not looking for a huge argument here; I'm just voicing my opinion. If Frozen made more sense to you than it did to me... good for you.

I'm not here looking for an argument either, just so we're on the same page, just sharing thoughts. Unless someone (and I do mean this as a general statement, not just you) says something trivializing about depression, I'm not going to get full-out confrontational on the subject.

[yot yot5]

I'm not sure I get what you mean by "complete change of character", it's not like she looked happy or anything during that scene - she looked desperate. That's an example of what I mean when I refer to emotional outlashes. I'm not saying that justifies it, just explains it.

What I mean by “complete change of character” is that Elsa never sticks with one character trait – such as fear, bitterness, resent, or confidence – for more than a few scenes, at the most. Let’s look at her timeline:

At the start of the movie: Plays with Anna like any normal sister would. (Nothing wrong there)
During “Do You Wanna Build a Snowman”: Completely avoids Anna. Even when Anna is mourning her parents outside Elsa’s bedroom, she still refuses to talk to Anna. (I don’t see why Elsa can’t talk to Anna. I mean, it’s not like saying “hi” is going to freeze her, or anything. But other than that, Elsa makes sense so far.)
At the start of the coronation party: Randomly says “hi” to Anna. (This is where it starts to go downhill. Where did that “hi” come from? Where was that “hi” when Anna was sobbing outside Elsa’s door? I mean, it’s great that Elsa is finally starting to do something nice to her sister, but why the sudden change?)
A few minutes into this conversation: Suddenly stops the conversation and blocks Anna out again. (Why did she bother starting the conversation in the first place?)
At the end of the coronation party: Ignores Anna’s yells and runs across the lake. (Why not just stay and explain things to Anna? As far as Elsa knows, this could be the last time she ever sees her sister, and yet she’s completely ignoring her.)
During “Let it Go”: Kicks back and shows 100% confidence. She doesn’t care what they’re going to say. She’s the snow queen, and she’s proud of it! (Until…)
Meeting Anna again in the ice palace: Elsa has completely lost her sassy awesomeness from “Let it Go”. Instead, she’s her old, quite, meek self. She also confidently talks with Anna once again. (Until…)
At the end of this scene: Elsa suddenly decides to stop chatting and summon a huge snow golem to get Anna out of her ice palace! (I like to imagine an alternate ending where the golem throws Anna off a cliff and kills her. Whoops, she’s dead, and Elsa has nobody but herself to blame.)
In Elsa’s next scene in the ice palace: She’s pacing around her palace, utterly terrified. Where’s the powerful queen from “Let it Go” when you need her? ( The next scene, maybe?)
When the assassins attack her: Tries to mercilessly kill an assassin. (And I disagree with you; I don’t think she looks desperate. I think she looks brutal, vicious, and evil.)
In the prison: The first words she says are “Where’s Anna?”, despite the fact that in her last scene with Anna, she was willing to summon a giant snow golem just to keep her away!

***

Obviously, some of her character changes can be explained by goings-on on the screen, but I hope you can see where I’m coming from when I say Elsa’s character has “no consistency”. I’m fine with a character changing over time, but I think Elsa is thrown to far too many extremes, far too quickly.

She almost killed her sister. Whether or not Anna knew about the magic-ice or not, the point is that Elsa would hate herself for it more than anything. Even if Anna knew and said "oh, okay, I forgive you", it's hard to shake off that kind of self-loathing.

Yes, she almost killed her sister accidentally. So what? That was fifteen years ago. I once almost killed my sister accidentally (a very embarrassing story involving a climbing wall and a distracted me), but because it was an accident and I never deliberately meant her any harm, she forgave me and we both moved on. And honestly, it wasn’t all that difficult. The only way you can ever be forgiven is if you confess you need to be forgiven.

Something else I would like to mention is the fact that Elsa starts several conversations with Anna during the movie. Elsa obviously can’t hate herself for hurting Anna all that much, or she wouldn’t have said “hi” during the coronation party or talked to Anna in her ice palace with such calmness.

The depression/anxiety parallels around Elsa are very much intentional. Keeping going with that, it's important for people dealing with either to know that they're not at fault for what they're going through. I felt the point was that Elsa didn't need to apologize for what she'd been going through (I'm not referring to actions like pushing that assassin off the balcony, that's a different story).

I don't think Elsa needs to apologize for what she's going through - just some of the choices she's made. For instance, I think Elsa should apologize for not having enough courage to face her fears and explain things to Anna. To quote The Amazing Spider-Man "If you can do good things for other people, you have a moral obligation to do those things". Elsa could've completely turned Anna's life around, but she didn't. I think that is wrong, depression or no depression.

(And now that you mention it, it would be good for her to apologize to that assassin, too)

My impression at first was that, as far as their parents knew, Anna finding out about the magic-ice again would've been enough to kill her. Obviously it wasn't, but even then, Anna's generally shown to be a bit carefree - I figure they'd think it'd be safer to keep her in the dark and avoid risking anything like that happening again (not that it worked, but still)

I see where you're coming from, but once again, I think you’re forgetting several important points. Remember that the parents kept Anna locked inside the castle for her entire life, so there wasn’t any way she could’ve “let slip” Elsa’s secret. After all, Anna didn’t give away Elsa’s powers before the accident, so why should things be any different now? If anything, Anna will understand the dangers of these powers and be even more careful.

In any case, if the parents were really that desperate to avoid someone being hurt by Elsa’s power, why were they allowed to know? They were in just as much danger as being frozen as Anna was.

I'm pretty sure the point of the ice thawing near the end was that as far as Elsa was concerned, Anna didn't really love her.

Er… I really disagree with you, there. Anna was knocking on Elsa’s door and asking to see her for fifteen years. Anna spent three days climbing the North Mountain just to see Elsa. Anna refused to leave Elsa in her ice palace until a giant snow golem kicked her out. If Elsa didn’t see that as “love”, I don’t think she could see anything as “love” – even a life sacrifice.

I'm not here looking for an argument either, just so we're on the same page, just sharing thoughts.

Definitely.

[Qloof234]

(WHOA STUPIDLY LONG POST INCOMING, EVEN AFTER I SHORTENED IT A BIT. Also, just to be clear I'm addressing these points from the mindset of someone with depression and general anxiety)

To clarify, before I get started here (and I don't mean this to be rude or dismissive), have you dealt with depression/anxiety yourself or seen someone dealing with it? Because my impression while reading your post is that you're coming at this from an angle without depression/anxiety, which would probably explain why we feel so differently about this.

At the start of the coronation party: Randomly says “hi” to Anna. (This is where it starts to go downhill. Where did that “hi” come from? Where was that “hi” when Anna was sobbing outside Elsa’s door? I mean, it’s great that Elsa is finally starting to do something nice to her sister, but why the sudden change?)

Elsa would've been grieving over their parents as well, though. It can be hard to handle more than one... "emotional influence", for lack of a better word, at once. It doesn't strike me as unreasonable that she wouldn't be able to face Anna at that point.

As for the party, I figured part of it was because they are surrounded by people. It'd be harder to avoid people without someone noticing, and she already knows her sister so it'd be easier (even if not much) to talk to her.

A few minutes into this conversation: Suddenly stops the conversation and blocks Anna out again. (Why did she bother starting the conversation in the first place?)

It can be very draining to try and hold a conversation with someone, even if it's a short one, and it's easier to just cut off a conversation than try and explain things.

At the end of the coronation party: Ignores Anna’s yells and runs across the lake. (Why not just stay and explain things to Anna? As far as Elsa knows, this could be the last time she ever sees her sister, and yet she’s completely ignoring her.)

She was panicking, plain and simple.

During “Let it Go”: Kicks back and shows 100% confidence. She doesn’t care what they’re going to say. She’s the snow queen, and she’s proud of it! (Until…)

Considering that she's completely alone up there, I honestly don't think her confidence during Let it Go was genuine. It's easy to reassure yourself "it's okay, I can do this" when you aren't faced with people.

At the end of this scene: Elsa suddenly decides to stop chatting and summon a huge snow golem to get Anna out of her ice palace! (I like to imagine an alternate ending where the golem throws Anna off a cliff and kills her. Whoops, she’s dead, and Elsa has nobody but herself to blame.)

(Didn't address the one before this because I'd put that under "holding a conversation is hard")
Well, yeah, that's definitely an overreaction, don't get me wrong Having said that, it still doesn't strike me as being completely unprecedented - When you've had enough of trying to cope with someone who just doesn't get it, it's very very easy (and likely, in some cases) to completely snap at someone.

In the prison: The first words she says are “Where’s Anna?”, despite the fact that in her last scene with Anna, she was willing to summon a giant snow golem just to keep her away!

You can shut someone out and still care about them.

She almost killed her sister. Whether or not Anna knew about the magic-ice or not, the point is that Elsa would hate herself for it more than anything. Even if Anna knew and said "oh, okay, I forgive you", it's hard to shake off that kind of self-loathing.

Yes, she almost killed her sister accidentally. So what? That was fifteen years ago. I once almost killed my sister accidentally (a very embarrassing story involving a climbing wall and a distracted me), but because it was an accident and I never deliberately meant her any harm, she forgave me and we both moved on. And honestly, it wasn’t all that difficult. The only way you can ever be forgiven is if you confess you need to be forgiven.

That's fair enough. Having said that, it's not like everyone reacts to things the same way - if I were in Elsa's position, there'd be no way I could forgive myself, or even accept that the other party had forgiven me.

The depression/anxiety parallels around Elsa are very much intentional. Keeping going with that, it's important for people dealing with either to know that they're not at fault for what they're going through. I felt the point was that Elsa didn't need to apologize for what she'd been going through (I'm not referring to actions like pushing that assassin off the balcony, that's a different story).

I don't think Elsa needs to apologize for what she's going through - just some of the choices she's made.

We can agree on that one, at least.

For instance, I think Elsa should apologize for not having enough courage to face her fears and explain things to Anna.

Not this one, though. It's easy to say that, whether you've dealt with depression or not, but to actually act on it is another story altogether.

My impression at first was that, as far as their parents knew, Anna finding out about the magic-ice again would've been enough to kill her. Obviously it wasn't, but even then, Anna's generally shown to be a bit carefree - I figure they'd think it'd be safer to keep her in the dark and avoid risking anything like that happening again (not that it worked, but still)

I see where you're coming from, but once again, I think you’re forgetting several important points. Remember that the parents kept Anna locked inside the castle for her entire life, so there wasn’t any way she could’ve “let slip” Elsa’s secret. After all, Anna didn’t give away Elsa’s powers before the accident, so why should things be any different now? If anything, Anna will understand the dangers of these powers and be even more careful.

To clarify, I don't mean concern over her letting someone outside the castle know. I mean they might figure, considering Anna's personality, that she'd start badgering her sister to use her ice powers like that again. Besides, hindsight is always 20/20

I'm pretty sure the point of the ice thawing near the end was that as far as Elsa was concerned, Anna didn't really love her.

Er… I really disagree with you, there. Anna was knocking on Elsa’s door and asking to see her for fifteen years. Anna spent three days climbing the North Mountain just to see Elsa. Anna refused to leave Elsa in her ice palace until a giant snow golem kicked her out. If Elsa didn’t see that as “love”, I don’t think she could see anything as “love” – even a life sacrifice.

Trying to convince someone that you love them when they don't love themselves is a different story, though (and I get a pretty big sense of self-loathing from Elsa throughout most of the movie). I mean, hell, I have a... significant other, and even now I still have trouble actually believing that they love me, no matter how many times they say it - because I really don't see myself as being worth it.

What I'm trying to say there is that it's not uncommon to view genuine acts of love as just a facade. Anna sacrificing herself is what broke Elsa's mental barrier to that.

[Koopson44]

I'm not sure I get what you mean by "complete change of character", it's not like she looked happy or anything during that scene - she looked desperate. That's an example of what I mean when I refer to emotional outlashes. I'm not saying that justifies it, just explains it.

What I mean by “complete change of character” is that Elsa never sticks with one character trait – such as fear, bitterness, resent, or confidence – for more than a few scenes, at the most. Let’s look at her timeline:

At the start of the movie: Plays with Anna like any normal sister would. (Nothing wrong there)
During “Do You Wanna Build a Snowman”: Completely avoids Anna. Even when Anna is mourning her parents outside Elsa’s bedroom, she still refuses to talk to Anna. (I don’t see why Elsa can’t talk to Anna. I mean, it’s not like saying “hi” is going to freeze her, or anything. But other than that, Elsa makes sense so far.)
At the start of the coronation party: Randomly says “hi” to Anna. (This is where it starts to go downhill. Where did that “hi” come from? Where was that “hi” when Anna was sobbing outside Elsa’s door? I mean, it’s great that Elsa is finally starting to do something nice to her sister, but why the sudden change?)
A few minutes into this conversation: Suddenly stops the conversation and blocks Anna out again. (Why did she bother starting the conversation in the first place?)
At the end of the coronation party: Ignores Anna’s yells and runs across the lake. (Why not just stay and explain things to Anna? As far as Elsa knows, this could be the last time she ever sees her sister, and yet she’s completely ignoring her.)
During “Let it Go”: Kicks back and shows 100% confidence. She doesn’t care what they’re going to say. She’s the snow queen, and she’s proud of it! (Until…)
Meeting Anna again in the ice palace: Elsa has completely lost her sassy awesomeness from “Let it Go”. Instead, she’s her old, quite, meek self. She also confidently talks with Anna once again. (Until…)
At the end of this scene: Elsa suddenly decides to stop chatting and summon a huge snow golem to get Anna out of her ice palace! (I like to imagine an alternate ending where the golem throws Anna off a cliff and kills her. Whoops, she’s dead, and Elsa has nobody but herself to blame.)
In Elsa’s next scene in the ice palace: She’s pacing around her palace, utterly terrified. Where’s the powerful queen from “Let it Go” when you need her? ( The next scene, maybe?)
When the assassins attack her: Tries to mercilessly kill an assassin. (And I disagree with you; I don’t think she looks desperate. I think she looks brutal, vicious, and evil.)
In the prison: The first words she says are “Where’s Anna?”, despite the fact that in her last scene with Anna, she was willing to summon a giant snow golem just to keep her away!

***

Obviously, some of her character changes can be explained by goings-on on the screen, but I hope you can see where I’m coming from when I say Elsa’s character has “no consistency”. I’m fine with a character changing over time, but I think Elsa is thrown to far too many extremes, far too quickly.

She almost killed her sister. Whether or not Anna knew about the magic-ice or not, the point is that Elsa would hate herself for it more than anything. Even if Anna knew and said "oh, okay, I forgive you", it's hard to shake off that kind of self-loathing.

Yes, she almost killed her sister accidentally. So what? That was fifteen years ago. I once almost killed my sister accidentally (a very embarrassing story involving a climbing wall and a distracted me), but because it was an accident and I never deliberately meant her any harm, she forgave me and we both moved on. And honestly, it wasn’t all that difficult. The only way you can ever be forgiven is if you confess you need to be forgiven.

Something else I would like to mention is the fact that Elsa starts several conversations with Anna during the movie. Elsa obviously can’t hate herself for hurting Anna all that much, or she wouldn’t have said “hi” during the coronation party or talked to Anna in her ice palace with such calmness.

The depression/anxiety parallels around Elsa are very much intentional. Keeping going with that, it's important for people dealing with either to know that they're not at fault for what they're going through. I felt the point was that Elsa didn't need to apologize for what she'd been going through (I'm not referring to actions like pushing that assassin off the balcony, that's a different story).

I don't think Elsa needs to apologize for what she's going through - just some of the choices she's made. For instance, I think Elsa should apologize for not having enough courage to face her fears and explain things to Anna. To quote The Amazing Spider-Man "If you can do good things for other people, you have a moral obligation to do those things". Elsa could've completely turned Anna's life around, but she didn't. I think that is wrong, depression or no depression.

(And now that you mention it, it would be good for her to apologize to that assassin, too)

My impression at first was that, as far as their parents knew, Anna finding out about the magic-ice again would've been enough to kill her. Obviously it wasn't, but even then, Anna's generally shown to be a bit carefree - I figure they'd think it'd be safer to keep her in the dark and avoid risking anything like that happening again (not that it worked, but still)

I see where you're coming from, but once again, I think you’re forgetting several important points. Remember that the parents kept Anna locked inside the castle for her entire life, so there wasn’t any way she could’ve “let slip” Elsa’s secret. After all, Anna didn’t give away Elsa’s powers before the accident, so why should things be any different now? If anything, Anna will understand the dangers of these powers and be even more careful.

In any case, if the parents were really that desperate to avoid someone being hurt by Elsa’s power, why were they allowed to know? They were in just as much danger as being frozen as Anna was.

I'm pretty sure the point of the ice thawing near the end was that as far as Elsa was concerned, Anna didn't really love her.

Er… I really disagree with you, there. Anna was knocking on Elsa’s door and asking to see her for fifteen years. Anna spent three days climbing the North Mountain just to see Elsa. Anna refused to leave Elsa in her ice palace until a giant snow golem kicked her out. If Elsa didn’t see that as “love”, I don’t think she could see anything as “love” – even a life sacrifice.

I'm not here looking for an argument either, just so we're on the same page, just sharing thoughts.

Definitely.

I thought Ebert And Ciscal were dead.

[yot yot5]

Wait, you think Elsa's confidence wasn't geniune during "Let it Go"? Wow, I think your opinions on this film are stranger than mine.

Well, it's obvious we're not going to reach an agreement on this, so I'm not going to write down a counter-argument to all those points. There is just one last thing I would like to say, though: even if some of Elsa's personal choices can be explained through a complicated medical condition that wasn't mentioned in the film, the fact remains that Elsa barely spends any quality time with her sister during the movie. When Anna sacrifices herself for Elsa, I can see that Anna apparently still loves her sister, but because they haven't done a single loving thing between them for fifteen years, I can't feel the love that they apparently share.

If the film showed Anna and Elsa talking through the door to each other during "Do You Wanna Build a Snowman?" (I still don't see why they couldn't do that), I would be able to see that the two sisters still cared for each other. But because they only spend about 5 minutes of screen time together (and most of their scenes end with Elsa either blocking Anna out or throwing her out with a giant golem), I found their relationship empty and flat.

That is the main problem I have with this movie. Through fault of the scriptwriters or not, I felt absolutely nothing when Anna sacrificed herself. The only thought running through my head was, "Why on Earth did she do that?" So yeah, I agree with you on several points, but it still hasn't changed my opinion on the film.

*

But anyway, good talk. It feels refreshing for me to finally have a drama-free discussion.

[Qloof234]

Wait, you think Elsa's confidence wasn't geniune during "Let it Go"? Wow, I think your opinions on this film are stranger than mine.

wow rude

On a serious note, though - From my own experiences with depression, yes, I think that confidence was insincere. It's... Well, okay, I was going to say "it's easy to put on a show" when it really isn't easy, but based on Elsa throughout most of the movie I think it's far likelier she's trying (unsuccessfully) to reassure herself things are alright when they really aren't.

Well, it's obvious we're not going to reach an agreement on this, so I'm not going to write down a counter-argument to all those points. There is just one last thing I would like to say, though: even if some of Elsa's personal choices can be explained through a complicated medical condition that wasn't mentioned in the film, the fact remains that Elsa barely spends any quality time with her sister during the movie. When Anna sacrifices herself for Elsa, I can see that Anna apparently still loves her sister, but because they haven't done a single loving thing between them for fifteen years, I can't feel the love that they apparently share.

Let's be clear here, I'm not arguing about anything other than Elsa, and even then I respect your opinion on her. I get what you're saying, though I didn't feel that way myself (I think that's because, with all the depression/anxiety undertones around Elsa, just seeing that Anna still loved her was enough for me)

And yeah, I'm aware they didn't mention the anxiety/depression thing in the film, I'm not arguing about that. I suppose what I'm arguing is that the underlying themes were intentional (I'll see if I can find a direct quote about it later, but I remember reading it confirmed by one of the writers), and by extension that they're fundamental to Elsa's character.

Elsa serves as a realistic depiction of what anxiety and depression are like to go through (other than the whole ice magic of course). Considering how many people there are out there that really don't understand either of those things, Frozen is (in my opinion) a great step towards accurate depiction and information about the conditions being widespread.

(Also, as a feminist, I found it quite refreshing to see a movie with more than one female lead and something other than romance as the central plot, but that's not the point of this post)

But anyway, good talk. It feels refreshing for me to finally have a drama-free discussion.

Same here, even if we do disagree in the end.

[yot yot5]

wow rude

Oh, sorry. I didn't mean "strange" as in "bad". I just meant "out of the ordinary", which your opinion is. I've never heard anyone except you say that Elsa's confidence in "Let it Go" wasn't genuine. That's not bad, just unique, but I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Let's be clear here, I'm not arguing about anything other than Elsa, and even then I respect your opinion on her. I get what you're saying, though I didn't feel that way myself (I think that's because, with all the depression/anxiety undertones around Elsa, just seeing that Anna still loved her was enough for me)

And yeah, I'm aware they didn't mention the anxiety/depression thing in the film, I'm not arguing about that. I suppose what I'm arguing is that the underlying themes were intentional (I'll see if I can find a direct quote about it later, but I remember reading it confirmed by one of the writers), and by extension that they're fundamental to Elsa's character.

Elsa serves as a realistic depiction of what anxiety and depression are like to go through (other than the whole ice magic of course). Considering how many people there are out there that really don't understand either of those things, Frozen is (in my opinion) a great step towards accurate depiction and information about the conditions being widespread.

I agree with you, there. If you can find a direct quote, I'd be interested to hear it.

(Also, as a feminist, I found it quite refreshing to see a movie with more than one female lead and something other than romance as the central plot, but that's not the point of this post)

Mmmmmaaaaayyyyybbbbbeeeee... but that's not the point of this post.

Same here, even if we do disagree in the end.

[Qloof234]

wow rude

Oh, sorry. I didn't mean "strange" as in "bad". I just meant "out of the ordinary", which your opinion is. I've never heard anyone except you say that Elsa's confidence in "Let it Go" wasn't genuine. That's not bad, just unique, but I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Nah, don't worry about it. When I break out the crossed-arms emoticon I'm just kidding around

[Koopson44]

Y know whats a good movie? Clerks.

[Qloof234]

(to clarify I'm not bringing this up again in the interest of debating over whether Frozen's a good movie or not, as I think it's best to not get into that again, even if this post is long enough to be a short novel)

I agree with you, there. If you can find a direct quote, I'd be interested to hear it.

Update on this. After a stupidly long amount of searching with no results, I found the quote in a three second Google. I'm good at this

Anyways, this is from Jennifer Lee's Twitter (she's the movie's screenplay writer):

[Elsa's dialogue/body language] definitely was intentional to show anxiety and depression. Not necessarily for HCA, more for the story, but yes. Warm hugs to you.

I also found another site that goes a bit more in-depth on this.

The main character, Elsa, has a tragic event of hurting her younger sister, Anna, when she is very young. After they visit the trolls, Elsa is forced to keep this big secret from his sister and the rest of the world. This sends her into a state of depression because she doesn’t want to keep a secret from anyone, but she feels like she has to. Elsa also doesn’t know how to control her powers which gives her anxiety.

Elsa NEVER leaves her room:

With depression, it’s hard to get out of bed and socialize, and one never really wants to face the day, and Elsa shows the same signs! She also feels hopeless no one will like her because of her powers.

Elsa PUSHES people away:

Elsa shows signs of anxiety by shutting people out. She is afraid to get close to Anna because she has already hurt her once and doesn’t want to do it again. Elsa doesn’t have enough confidence in herself to know that she won’t hurt others, so she continuously pushes people away.

Elsa WON’T go back to Arendelle:

Elsa is so upset that she set off an eternal winter and has no confidence that she can fix anything, that she refuses to go back to Arendelle. She doesn’t want to go back because she is anxious to see everyone again. Elsa also loves to be alone, which isn’t necessarily a sign of depression or anxiety, however, she wants to be alone because she is depressed and doesn’t think others will like her because of what she has done to Arendelle.

Also, after re-watching Let it Go, because I feel like it, I'm going to elaborate on my thoughts.

TL;DR - Saying Elsa's confidence "wasn't genuine" was the wrong way to put it - It's far more nuanced than that, there are a lot of complex emotions going on in this song/scene. Keep in mind the following is all from my perspective, I'm not trying to state this as some sort of immutable truth. Again, I respect your opinion, even though we disagree (unless you don't like Let it Go, in which case we can't be friends )

First two verses - These establish right off the bat that Elsa's depressed. Her tone and body language back this up as well.

Don't let them in, don't let them see/Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know/You'll never see me cry - It's common for people with depression/anxiety to bottle up their feelings and try to put on a facade of happiness (Be the good girl you always have to be). To quote another post I've read regarding this, "In my experience (knowing those with depression), sometimes, your loved one does not want to hurt you by letting you know the sadness they feel inside."

Well now they know - A lot of people with depression or anxiety will try to hide it. Whether it's out of fear, shame, or whatever, someone finding out can be a pretty big blow. Not necessarily all the time, but it can happen.

Let it go, let it go/Can't hold it back anymore/Let the storm rage on - The next two verses are, in my opinion, the most important. By this point, Elsa's been overwhelmed - she's snapped at this point, and can't suppress her emotions anymore. I think there's some level of anger here, whether it's at herself, Anna, Arendelle, or just undirected anger that's been building over time, I'm not sure, but I'm certain it's there (Turn away and slam the door). I suspect it could be directed at the possibility of Arendelle judging her negatively (I don't care/What they're going to say/You'll never see me cry).

This last line, though - This one on its own looks really simple, but it really speaks levels to me. "The cold never bothered me anyway".

The obvious thing is that the cold doesn't actually seem to have any effect on here at all, so in a literal sense it's true. Metaphorically, though, I think it's Elsa trying to deny her true feelings to herself - she's scared of being rejected by other people (in that sense, the "I don't care" line above also counts here as denial), and she's scared of being alone. She's isolating herself because as far as she knows, if she does that, everyone else will be fine. She wants to reach out to other people, but she thinks if she does, they'll just end up getting hurt.

It's funny how some distance/Makes everything seem small - I'm not quite sure how to put this. I'd say it's something of a combination of denial and a misguided attempt at reassuring herself again (And the fears that once controlled me/can't get to me at all).

Here I stand/And here I'll stay - She's trying to convince herself that she truly wants to be alone. On some level, I don't think it's unlikely that she'd like a bit of solitude, but not absolute isolation like she's forcing upon herself.

I'm free/My power flurries through the air into the ground/My soul is spiralling in frozen fractals all around/And one thought crystallizes like an icy blast - I've lumped "I'm free" in here because I think it's quite relevant. Elsa's effectively building the ice/snow out of her thoughts and feelings.

I think that's notable because, well... Her ice castle/palace looks like a cage at first (and arguably after it's finished, as well). She's not "free" at all, she's still trapped by her fears and anxieties.

I'm never going back/The past is in the past - She's trying to satisfy herself regarding her own issues - by just ignoring them and telling herself things are fine. I think "That perfect girl is gone" factors into this as well, but I'm not quite sure how to explain it.

Lastly, the way she says "The cold never bothered me anyway," at the end. Again, I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but personally... Between the tone in Elsa's voice when she says that and the way she slams the door (cough) right afterwards, I don't think it's a stretch that she'd feel the need to sit down and cry or something.

As said before, while it's possible to put on a facade of confidence/happiness/whatever with depression, it's a huge drain, even if you're accustomed to it (which I am). While I'm not sure whether the reaction is a "per-person" thing or not (I'm inclined to say it isn't, based on what I've read), the end result was wanting to just lie down and sleep for a while at best. At worst, it was overwhelming... Negativity. I'm not sure if I'd say sadness, but it was definitely a negative emotion along those lines.

[Jutomi]

Something that is rather off-topic that I'd like to add is that I very much find entertainment in rereading posts from seven years ago.

Although, reading posts from the beginning of this very topic works just as well.

There's just one problem with doing so;
Sometimes I see their text, and want to reply to it.

P.S. Here's something I picked up while looking these said places up...

'x_X'
'-/\-
''|'|
This is Girl... and she's leading the revolution against guy.

[LittleZbot]

Happy April Fool's Day!

I wonder what sort of things are going to happen...

[tyteen4a03]

Happy April Fool's Day!

I wonder what sort of things are going to happen...

Like unclassy practical jokes from me.

[LittleZbot]

I celebrated it on Youtube the boring way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVI50QDrFJk

[Jutomi]

I'm celebrating it via helping revolt against Guy's domination over Cookie Land.

Nothing much more to that story.

[Master Wonder Mage]

I celebrated it on Youtube the boring way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVI50QDrFJk

Actually, you didn't get all the help bars. YOU DIDN'T DESERVE TO WIN!

[Qloof234]

Happy April Fool's Day!

I wonder what sort of things are going to happen...

Well, I planned on sleeping in all day to avoid jokes because I'm not too fond of April Fools', but that plan kinda went out the window.

[LittleZbot]

I celebrated it on Youtube the boring way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVI50QDrFJk

Actually, you didn't get all the help bars. YOU DIDN'T DESERVE TO WIN!

I was close enough...

[LittleZbot]

*ahem*

[Master Wonder Mage]

Honest Trailers is awesome.

[DEEMAN223344]

Oh dear. Krish has joined Game Maker Community and has stolen both Deja Vu and a forum game from epigam, and is passing them off as his own.
http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=616240
http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=615389
He is also attacking pcpuzzle/epigam members in another forum game just to be petty:

I find micman27, SS01 and Boywhoflies in gmc. I give them kick and 10 punches

Note:they are my foes.

[Jutomi]

I've joined it in some retrospect too.

But not as a rip-off vengeance so much as a silly testing zone that became something not the farthest off from a low-octane nightmare fuel.
The quote was admittedly tooken, though, by MNIK.

[Koopson44]

Beat cave story

[Violet141]

Doodles of two of my bro's adventure characters as people. Squiddish on the left, and Aliana on the right. The lines are rather faint since I scanned it, but I still think it looks nice!

[llarson]

WOW! Those look cool!

Awsome drawings Violet!

[LittleZbot]

Excellent drawings. It's interesting to see them as something other than stinkers.

[Wonderman109]

Excellent drawings. It's interesting to see them as something other than stinkers.

true dat

[Sammy_P]

May the third be with you.

(HAPPY STAR WARS DAY)

[LittleZbot]

Isn't it usually May 4th?

Eh, who cares? HAPPY STAR WARS DAY INDEED.

And don't you dare ask why I'm up at 2 A.M. playing video games on the computer.